Did Coltrane ever perform "Giant Steps" live?

[DukeCity]

I was just talking to a student about "Giant Steps" chord changes, and the question occurred to me (again):Other than the alternate takes from studio sessions, are there any recordings of Coltrane's group doing that tune on gigs. The same question would apply to "Countdown" and "26-2."

There's the common belief that Coltrane wrote those tunes more as practice etudes, but after going to all the trouble to learn/work on/record them, did any of them ever make it into the rotation of live gig tunes?

In the stack of books about Coltrane, is there any discussion about this?

[jazztrain]

Go here:

http://www.jazzdisco.org/trane/dis/c/

Search for "Giant Steps" and other tunes of interest.

[bertrand]

I didn't know about the private tapes, but I assume that someone has heard these and that the listing of 'Giant Steps' is correct.

As for the jam sessions with Wayne Shorter, I believe these are from Wayne's own accounts. I know he mentioned playing this tune during their practice sessions, and possibly remembered playing it live as well. But no tapes likely exist from these gigs, so we will never know for sure.

In the interview with Mel Martin at:

http://www.melmartin.com/html_pages/Interviews/shorter.html

Wayne does mention the possbility of the existence of some bootleg tapes from a jam session with the Roach and Rollins (see below). Have these ever surfaced? That name Pete Lonesome shows up somewhere else, perhaps in Michelle Mercer's book. I will investigate further. Perhaps Lonesome also taped Wayne with Coltrane (not likely).

Bertrand.

'The Mark VII I have is good. It has another kind of sound, heavy kind of sound. The first horn I ever played was a Martin. I remember playing that horn on a stage with Sonny Rollins in Newark, New Jersey at a place called Sugar Hill. I was in the Army and I had a weekend off. This was when Max Roach and Sonny Rollins were playing together, right after when Clifford Brown died. I walked into the club in uniform and Max waved to me to come on up, but I went home and changed clothes first (laughter). We played Cherokee real fast. A guy named Pete Lonesome recorded that. What a name! He was from West Virginia and as far as I know he still has that recording somewhere. Pete, please contact this magazine. He put the mic right on the stage. Pete Lonesome.'

Edited November 16, 2006 by bertrand

[DukeCity]

I wonder if any of those Trane/Wayne tapes (listed as rejected) exist somewhere. Also, has anyone ever heard the 1962 Olympia, Paris tape?

I'm assuming that the 1960 Showboat, Philly tapes are circulating somewhere...

[brownie]

I wonder if any of those Trane/Wayne tapes (listed as rejected) exist somewhere. Also, has anyone ever heard the 1962 Olympia, Paris tape?

Those 1962 Olympia concerts were organized in collaboration with the Europe 1 radio station. There is a strong chance the tapes are still there.

I was at those concerts, first time I heard Coltrane live!

[erhodes]

Go here:

http://www.jazzdisco.org/trane/dis/c/

Search for "Giant Steps" and other tunes of interest.

Hmmm....

The Showboat and Jazz Gallery listings are mostly from Frank Tiberi material (I believe all of the 1960 entries are). That means that virtually no one has those shows.

I'd be careful of jazzdisco.org. There information is often compiled, sometimes uncritically, from other sources. They have added a lot of material to their Coltrane disco based on entries from Fujioka that are subject to pretty substantial revisions. E.g., the July 1963 date they give for one Showboat set is wrong.

I'm fairly sure that they have not auditioned the Tiberi material and cannot vouch for the accuracy of dates, track listings, and even the existence of the tapes.

Mike Fitzgerald has commented at length on the problems with this site. I'm surprised that it is cited on this board as often as it is. Cross check it before you go to the bank with what they show.

[erhodes]

I didn't know about the private tapes, but I assume that someone has heard these and that the listing of 'Giant Steps' is correct.

Fujioka et al auditioned some of the Tiberi material prior to publication of their discography but they did not have unfettered access to the tapes and supporting documentation. The listings on the jazzdisco.org give the wrong impression, IMO. Most of the details re: the Tiberi tapes have yet to be confirmed. I would be cautious about drawing conclusions. The next edition of Fuji should have more but until Tiberi allows some researcher real access to his archive, we can't look at published information in the same way we can, say, discographical references to the Boris Rose material.

[erhodes]

Also, has anyone ever heard the 1962 Olympia, Paris tape?

Those 1962 Olympia concerts were organized in collaboration with the Europe 1 radio station. There is a strong chance the tapes are still there.

I was at those concerts, first time I heard Coltrane live!

I have no knowledge of the original master but dubs of what was thought to be the first concert have been in circulation for decades. Also, some of the material in the Fantasy/Pablo "Live Trane" box may from the second concert. At least one track in the box, a version of "Mr. P.C.", is the same track circulated in the traded material.

My information is several years old but as of then there was still some confusion as to which tracks were actually from which concert, since neither the private tapes or the Fantasy/Pablo tracks play continuously.

Again, maybe the next Fuji book will clear this up.

[erhodes]

Also, has anyone ever heard the 1962 Olympia, Paris tape?

Those 1962 Olympia concerts were organized in collaboration with the Europe 1 radio station. There is a strong chance the tapes are still there.

I was at those concerts, first time I heard Coltrane live!

I have no knowledge of the original master but dubs of what was thought to be the first concert have been in circulation for decades. Also, some of the material in the Fantasy/Pablo "Live Trane" box may be from the second concert. At least one track in the box, a version of "Mr. P.C.", is the same as a track circulated in the private material.

My information is several years old but as of then there was still some confusion as to which tracks were actually from which concert, since neither the private tapes or the Fantasy/Pablo tracks play continuously.

Again, maybe the next Fuji book will clear this up.

[bertrand]

You are absolutely correct - we don't really know what's on the tapes listed by jazzdisco.org.

I typed a bit too fast, and made it sound like a trust them a lot more than I really do. I mostly ignore the info from this site if it relates to grey-market material.

Bertrand.

[Eloe Omoe]

The next edition of Fuji should have more but until Tiberi allows some researcher real access to his archive

Hasn't Tiberi recently died? And what's going to happen to his tapes?

luca

Edited November 18, 2006 by Eloe Omoe

[JSngry]

Tiberi lives to the best of my knowledge.

You're probably thinking of Frank Vicari.

[Eloe Omoe]

Tiberi lives to the best of my knowledge.

You're probably thinking of Frank Vicari.

True. I was wrong. Sorry, Mr. Tiberi.

[Eric B]

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