Miles in Tokyo

[clifford_thornton]

Yup.

[JSngry]

To reiterate and add (a bit), Sam is in a different stratosphere in this one. Which is not to say that he outpaces the band, or that the "other" horn (Miles) sounds outdated by comparison--it's just that this was a group of cats who were willing to move with the flow of outness... and, whereas, Miles could rein them in tight, Sam could take them out loose. I don't find Sam more jarring on this one than on Into Something!, for example, but he's clearly not as much of a 'unity' with Miles as Wayne was. All in all, it makes for some startling stuff.

Well, yeah. It was Tony who got Sam the gig (I've heard that Tony & Herbie both were drug - at the time - w/Coleman's more inside approach), & Tony was definitely feelin' Sam on this gig, as was Herbie. But Miles, I don't think was ready yet for Sam. Sam was loose, like you say, and I get the feeling that he was, shall we say, "underwhelmed" to be playing beside Miles.

The difference between Sam in this band & Wayne in this band is that with Sam, he came out and laid it all out, and that was that. With Wayne, there was always the sense that there was going to be something more to come (as there indeed would be). And for the way that Miles liked to present his bands (and his life in general...), that sense of more to come (vs. "this is it, deal with it") made Wayne the more fitting long-term choice.

But I love hearing Sam on this date. Miles is still playing in a faintly residual "Blackhawk" style (which was in itself a residual '50s style), & then Sam comes in and essentially says get the phuck outta my way with that shit.

Very disrespectful.

[B. Clugston]

This one reminds me of the old Sesame Street song: "One of these things, is not like the other..."

[MartyJazz]

To reiterate and add (a bit), Sam is in a different stratosphere in this one. Which is not to say that he outpaces the band, or that the "other" horn (Miles) sounds outdated by comparison--it's just that this was a group of cats who were willing to move with the flow of outness... and, whereas, Miles could rein them in tight, Sam could take them out loose. I don't find Sam more jarring on this one than on Into Something!, for example, but he's clearly not as much of a 'unity' with Miles as Wayne was. All in all, it makes for some startling stuff.

Well, yeah. It was Tony who got Sam the gig (I've heard that Tony & Herbie both were drug - at the time - w/Coleman's more inside approach), & Tony was definitely feelin' Sam on this gig, as was Herbie. But Miles, I don't think was ready yet for Sam. Sam was loose, like you say, and I get the feeling that he was, shall we say, "underwhelmed" to be playing beside Miles.

The difference between Sam in this band & Wayne in this band is that with Sam, he came out and laid it all out, and that was that. With Wayne, there was always the sense that there was going to be something more to come (as there indeed would be). And for the way that Miles liked to present his bands (and his life in general...), that sense of more to come (vs. "this is it, deal with it") made Wayne the more fitting long-term choice.

But I love hearing Sam on this date. Miles is still playing in a faintly residual "Blackhawk" style (which was in itself a residual '50s style), & then Sam comes in and essentially says get the phuck outta my way with that shit.

Very disrespectful.

I was very fortunate back in late '74 to have Sam and his wife Beatrice visit my apartment in Brooklyn Heights where we listened to a tape of Sam with Miles in Kyoto, recorded the night after the Tokyo date. At that time, Sam was unaware of the Kyoto tape existence so I was quite pleased to run off an open reel copy for him as we listened to the music. Anyway, to cut the story short, I asked why his stay with Miles was so short, not being at all aware at that time that Miles probably perceived their union as an incompatible one. Sam simply stated that he preferred to hook up with Andrew Hill after the gig with Miles. For myself, I love the music that Sam made with Miles and particularly love the versions of "So What" and the closing "All of You" cut on the Tokyo date.

[Rooster_Ties]

The difference between Sam in this band & Wayne in this band is that with Sam, he came out and laid it all out, and that was that. With Wayne, there was always the sense that there was going to be something more to come (as there indeed would be). And for the way that Miles liked to present his bands (and his life in general...), that sense of more to come (vs. "this is it, deal with it") made Wayne the more fitting long-term choice.

But I love hearing Sam on this date. Miles is still playing in a faintly residual "Blackhawk" style (which was in itself a residual '50s style), & then Sam comes in and essentially says get the phuck outta my way with that shit.

Very disrespectful.

Did Sam prime the pump for Wayne to step in??

In other words, would Wayne have been as well received (by Miles), if Wayne had immediately followed George??

Been ages since I've heard Miles in Berlin (with Wayne) -- any clues there?? (I really need to break down and get the Seven Steps box -- the last of the Miles boxes I have yet to purchase.)

What are people's opinions about Miles in Berlin?? And I know there are some other '64 dates with Wayne floating about -- what of some of them?? Sangry -- what's your take on what Wayne did with Miles really early on (live), pre-ESP.

Edited November 14, 2006 by Rooster_Ties

[JSngry]

Miles was already chasing Wayne while Wayne was w/Blakey, so I don't think that Sam "primed the pump".

[jazzbo]

Yes, Miles wanted Wayne long before this excursion with Sam. . . for all the right reasons it turns out.

I really like the appearances with Sam. . .an interesting offshoot. Interesting to think that it might have lasted and Sam's playing would have had more limelight and been more influential. Hard to imagine that happening though!

Miles in Berlin is solid. . . . .It's not my favorite of the work of this quintet by a longshot, but get it as a part of the box set and enjoy it. The bootlegged audience tape of the Paris date is good, but the sound quality makes it hard to enjoy.

[sal]

Count me in as a big fan of Miles in Berlin. I love the Sam Rivers date, but as was mentioned earlier, Wayne was definitely the missing piece of the puzzle, and at least for me, hearing Berlin just gives the sense of everything coming together.

The dates with George Coleman for me are the least satisfying. Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of George, but just not with this band. It still makes for some fine jazz, but with that rhythm section, its hard not to hear the sound of a band being held back.

[Rooster_Ties]

Miles was already chasing Wayne while Wayne was w/Blakey, so I don't think that Sam "primed the pump".

Oh, I know Miles' had been chasing Wayne -- since long before Sam was ever even in the group. (The stuff of lore.)

I'm just wondering if some of what happened when Wayne finally came into the group, wasn't somehow influenced or informed by what Sam did with Miles in his very short stint. You know, gave Miles an idea of what was possible/probable -- particularly in terms of what Herbie and Tony would/could do - if they were given even the slightest licence to do so (which Sam did).

I'm not saying Miles didn't know his own band. But knowing and hearing (on stage in performance, no less) are two slightly different things. The difference between knowing, and really knowing -- if you catch my drift.

Maybe everything would have happened exactly the same way if the jump had been straight from George to Wayne. I'm guessing the progression of the group (into E.S.P. territory) happened a bit faster because of Sam. Just a hunch, with no way to back it up.

Edited November 14, 2006 by Rooster_Ties

[JSngry]

I'm guessing the progression of the group (into E.S.P. territory) happened a bit faster because of Sam. Just a hunch, with no way to back it up.

Don't know that I'd agree, but don't know that I wouldn't either.

My guess would be that what turned Mile off on Sam was a certain lack of, for want of a better word, "subtlety". Even Trane at his most torrential left you with layers. Sam was. like I said earlier, "in your face" even when he wasn't really trying to be. That's just how Sam was (and still is), and that's what makes him such a beautiful player. But Wayne was always had a quality of "in your mind", even when he was getting in your face. And that's what I think Miles was after for his band, that extra layer of impact.

Besides, that rhythm section was already pushing the limits even when George was in the band, and Miles did absolutely nothing but encourage them. No matter how much Tony dug Sam, you still had Herbie, who always brought a little bit of cerebiality to the plate, one that would fit better over the long haul w/Wayne than it did with Sam. Just my opinion.

I'm talking "personality" here, not "substance". Sam in those days was a very advanced player, so it's not a matter of Wayne being "deeper" or anything like that. We're just talking collective/cumulative/synergistic band personalty.