Rome

[Guy Berger]

You know that Octavia is going to marry Marc Antony, right?

Historically, yes. Not sure if the writers will stick to that in the series.

Guy

[Larry Kart]

You know that Octavia is going to marry Marc Antony, right?

Historically, yes. Not sure if the writers will stick to that in the series.

Guy

Don't recall it exactly, but I believe there was a brief bit of dialogue in the last episode that foreshadowed an eventual Octavia/Antony union.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

You know that Octavia is going to marry Marc Antony, right?

About the British accents, this time for once I think that works nicely because they're not all upper crust British accents; rather, the accents high and low are carefully parcelled out on that basis. Given that kind of care, the parallel between Roman Empire/British Empire seems just right to me. I particularly like the Kipling-esque bond that unites Pullo to Verenus. Or would you prefer they speak Latin?

I recall one wonderful cheapo Italian epic film of the late '50s or early '60s, dubbed into English by American actors, in which the following line is uttered (hope I can convey the accent):

"Ah aim a troo Romayn citizeyn; throw theym into the piyut!"

MG

[Guy Berger]

For whatever reason, I'm enjoying the scenes with Cicero the best this season. Interesting character... his interaction with Agrippa -- "meet the new boss, same as the old boss" -- was the best part of the episode.

I also enjoyed the interplay between Octavian, Agrippa and Maecenas. Hopefully there will be more of that in later episodes.

Guy

[Larry Kart]

Why the hell do we suddenly have a new actor playing Octavian? The first Octavian was perfect, and this guy is a stick. I'd have no problem with an Octavian who looked a bit young for what he's up to; in fact, that would be all for the better; it was part of the charm of the first Octavian's performance. Damn it!

[Guy Berger]

Why the hell do we suddenly have a new actor playing Octavian? The first Octavian was perfect, and this guy is a stick. I'd have no problem with an Octavian who looked a bit young for what he's up to; in fact, that would be all for the better; it was part of the charm of the first Octavian's performance. Damn it!

I don't know how I feel about the new Octavian, but the old one (who was good, I agree) was way too young for the historical role he has to play during the rest of the season.

Guy

[chris olivarez]

I watched this for the first time last night and I have a couple of questions. (1)Did Brutus essentially committ suicide by single handedly attacking Antony's and Octavian's legions after the defeat at Philippi?(2)Was it Antony who said the smell of victory was smoke,shit and rotting flesh. BTW I enjoyed the hell out of that episode-guess I'll have to check out the first season DVD.

[Guy Berger]

I finally saw the Philippi episode. Very nice, though I wonder how they will wrap things up in the final 4 episodes since they won't be able to get to the Battle of Actium. Some great lines by Mark Antony directed at Octavian ("you are a ferocious cunt... with a pen" / "Now's the time to urinate..."). Cicero, Cassius and Brutus's deaths were poignant. The only shame is that Cicero and Brutus were two of the best characters in the show, but I suppose history rolls on.

I watched this for the first time last night and I have a couple of questions. (1)Did Brutus essentially committ suicide by single handedly attacking Antony's and Octavian's legions after the defeat at Philippi?

In the show, yes. If you're asking about the historical version, this is the account from wikipedia:

Upon hearing that neither Antony nor Octavian had an army big enough to defend Rome, Brutus rallied his troops, which totaled about seventeen legions. When Octavian heard that Brutus was on his way to Rome, he made peace with Antony.[2] Together their armies, which totaled about nineteen legions marched to meet Brutus and Cassius. The following battles are known as the Battle of Philippi. The first battle, known as the First Battle of Philippi was fought on October 3, 42 BC, in which Brutus managed to defeat Octavian's forces although Cassius was defeated by Antony's forces. The Second Battle of Philippi was fought on October 23, 42 BC.

After the Second Battle of Philippi, in which Brutus was defeated, he fled into the near by hills with only about 4 legions. Knowing his army had been defeated and that he would be captured, Brutus committed suicide. His last word were allegedly "Yes, we must escape, but this time with our hands, not our feet" [21]. As a show of respect, Mark Antony covered the body of Brutus with a purple garment or mantle. The body of Brutus was cremated, and his ashes were sent to his mother, Servilia Caepionis [22]. His wife Porcia also committed suicide upon hearing of her husband's death [23]. This is counter to the popular notion provided in Shakespeare's 'Julius Caesar', which says Porcia Catonis committed suicide prior to Brutus' death. A debatable account from Nicolaus of Damascus supports this notion.

(2)Was it Antony who said the smell of victory was smoke,shit and rotting flesh.

No, I think that was Octavian responding to Antony's comment about enjoying the smell of victory.

Edited March 11, 2007 by Guy

[Larry Kart]

I finally saw the Philippi episode. Very nice, though I wonder how they will wrap things up in the final 4 episodes since they won't be able to get to the Battle of Actium. Some great lines by Mark Antony directed at Octavian tonight ("you are a ferocious cunt... with a pen").

I watched this for the first time last night and I have a couple of questions. (1)Did Brutus essentially committ suicide by single handedly attacking Antony's and Octavian's legions after the defeat at Philippi?

In the show, yes. If you're asking about the historical version, this is the account from wikipedia:

Upon hearing that neither Antony nor Octavian had an army big enough to defend Rome, Brutus rallied his troops, which totaled about seventeen legions. When Octavian heard that Brutus was on his way to Rome, he made peace with Antony.[2] Together their armies, which totaled about nineteen legions marched to meet Brutus and Cassius. The following battles are known as the Battle of Philippi. The first battle, known as the First Battle of Philippi was fought on October 3, 42 BC, in which Brutus managed to defeat Octavian's forces although Cassius was defeated by Antony's forces. The Second Battle of Philippi was fought on October 23, 42 BC.

After the Second Battle of Philippi, in which Brutus was defeated, he fled into the near by hills with only about 4 legions. Knowing his army had been defeated and that he would be captured, Brutus committed suicide. His last word were allegedly "Yes, we must escape, but this time with our hands, not our feet" [21]. As a show of respect, Mark Antony covered the body of Brutus with a purple garment or mantle. The body of Brutus was cremated, and his ashes were sent to his mother, Servilia Caepionis [22]. His wife Porcia also committed suicide upon hearing of her husband's death [23]. This is counter to the popular notion provided in Shakespeare's 'Julius Caesar', which says Porcia Catonis committed suicide prior to Brutus' death. A debatable account from Nicolaus of Damascus supports this notion.

(2)Was it Antony who said the smell of victory was smoke,shit and rotting flesh.

No, I think that was Octavian responding to Antony's comment about enjoying the smell of victory.

However, in history, Cassius -- "chagrined at defeat and despairing of the future" (The Cambridge Aincient History) -- did commit suicide in the course of the First Battle of Phillipi, after his troops were routed and his camp plundered by an assault led by Antony.

How they're going to wrap things up I can't imagine. In history, no less than 12 action- and drama-filled years take place between Phillipi and Actium, the logical end point. If they do somehow manage to push on that far, though, I have an idea for one of the last moves. After Actium, Caesarion, the son of Caesar and Cleopatra, is hunted down and killed on the orders of Octavian, in part because Antony had declared that Caesarion, not Octavian, was Caesar's true heir. Now who's going to kill this poor young man? Pullo, of course -- trustworthy designated assassin of very important people (e.g. Cicero) and the person who happens to be, within the context of "Rome," Caesarion's actual father.

[Guy Berger]

How they're going to wrap things up I can't imagine. In history, no less than 12 action- and drama-filled years take place between Phillipi and Actium, the logical end point. If they do somehow manage to push on that far, though, I have an idea for one of the last moves. After Actium, Caesarion, the son of Caesar and Cleopatra, is hunted down and killed on the orders of Octavian, in part because Antony had declared that Caesarion, not Octavian, was Caesar's true heir. Now who's going to kill this poor young man? Pullo, of course -- trustworthy designated assassin of very important people (e.g. Cicero) and the person who happens to be, within the context of "Rome," Caesarion's actual father.

Good call, Larry. That would be a nice twist.

Guy

[Larry Kart]

In case I wasn't clear, the killing of Caesarion wasn't just a plot suggestion -- he was actually hunted down and killed, on Octavian's orders, in the wake of Actium.

[Guy Berger]

In case I wasn't clear, the killing of Caesarion wasn't just a plot suggestion -- he was actually hunted down and killed, on Octavian's orders, in the wake of Actium.

"Two Caesars are too many."

[Larry Kart]

In case I wasn't clear, the killing of Caesarion wasn't just a plot suggestion -- he was actually hunted down and killed, on Octavian's orders, in the wake of Actium.

"Two Caesars are too many."

Excellent. How does that go in Latin?

[Harold_Z]

I've been enjoying this whole season, but it has been pointed out to me by more than one person that if I wanted to see the real deal I should get "I, Claudius."

Opinions?

Edited March 11, 2007 by Harold_Z

[Larry Kart]

Both excellent at best, but apples and oranges. I like the emphasis in "Rome" (no doubt John Milius's contribution) on the role physical force/violence (and the willingness to use it) plays at crucial junctures. In that vein, all of "I, Claudius" takes place in a potentially and at times actually no less violent world that that of "Rome," but it's an Imperial world (for the most part a world of courtiers and intrigues), while "Rome" is about an Imperial world coming into being, and thus it has more to do at times with largish chunks of the populace. Also, good as it is, "I, Claudius," taped for TV in the studio, can seem a bit claustrophobic after a while.

[Guy Berger]

By the way, I found the following interesting biography on wikipedia. I assume this is where they got the idea for Brutus's fictionalized death:

Marcus Porcius Cato, son of Cato the Younger by his first marriage to Atilia. He was the brother of Porcia Catonis, who was first married to Marcus Calpurnius Bibulus (co-consul with Caesar in 59 BC), and later married their half-cousin (on the maternal side) Marcus Junius Brutus. He had fought in the battle of Thapsus with his father. They were defeated and his father Cato committed suicide. Julius Caesar pardoned young Cato and allowed him to keep his father's property.

Despite being pardoned by Caesar and allowed to return home[1], Cato joined his brother-in-law Brutus and ally Gaius Cassius Longinus in the assassination of Caesar. They fled Rome for Greece where Cato fought in both of the battles of Philippi. Cato was killed at the second battle of Philippi in 42 BC. According to Plutarch, as the army of the Liberators routed, he refused to retreat, and instead charged into the enemy ranks, allegedly withour helmet or armor. Cato was renowned for being a man of gallantry and warm temperament.

[Guy Berger]

I've been enjoying this whole season, but it has been pointed out to me by more than one person that if I wanted to see the real deal I should get "I, Claudius."

Opinions?

I Claudius is great, but not necessarily better than Rome. One of Rome's advantages is giving you a sense of what Rome and the provinces were really like, whereas due to budgetary reasons I Claudius focuses almost entirely on political machinations at the Imperial Court.

Guy

[Guy Berger]

You know that Octavia is going to marry Marc Antony, right?

...and the hammer drops.

The town crier's comment about maintaining mockery of the Jews and their one god to an appropriate minimum during Herod's visit was hilarious.

I'm looking forward to tonight's episode.

Guy

Edited March 12, 2007 by Guy

[chris olivarez]

Any idea on whether all of these will be rerun before they all go on DVD. The only reason I came on these at all was because I've been in hotels the last couple of weekends and I've got to say I'm really impressed. If they're going to rerun them I might pop for HBO for awhile.

[Harold_Z]

Titus Pullo is a bad mother........

[Guy Berger]

I'm really digging the characters of Maecenas and Agrippa.

Chris -- if you are too impatient to wait for HBO reruns, you can download the episodes online. That's what I've been doing.

Guy

Edited March 12, 2007 by Guy

[chris olivarez]

Oh I can wait but if you hear anything don't hesitate to let me know. Thanks Guy.

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

they should do a live episode of that show in july when genesis play on ancient site known as circus maximus

[AllenLowe]

I have trouble with I Claudius because, as Larry indicated, it's on videotape. Film is so much better; also, "Rome" has more sex. How can you go wrong?

[Guy Berger]

Livia enters the picture...

I wonder why they set up Octavian as an S&M freak... I don't think this is supported by the historical record?

That tongue-biting scene was classic.

Guy

Edited March 14, 2007 by Guy