Rome

[chris olivarez]

The S&M thing could be a ratings ploy and if so I would have to disagree with that programming decision. As far as I know Octavian did not engage in S&M.

[Larry Kart]

Last season, I think it was, they established that the young Octavian had problems, conceptual and in terms of execution, when it came to sex with women. Pullo took him to a brothel and helped him get over the hump, so to speak, but I'm pretty sure I recall that there were intimations of S&M (or probably just S) -- as though without such trimmings the whole business didn't work for Octavian.

[Guy Berger]

Last season, I think it was, they established that the young Octavian had problems, conceptual and in terms of execution, when it came to sex with women. Pullo took him to a brothel and helped him get over the hump, so to speak, but I'm pretty sure I recall that there were intimations of S&M (or probably just S) -- as though without such trimmings the whole business didn't work for Octavian.

I remember that episode, but don't remember any S or M. He was also seduced by his sister in a different episode.

Guy

[Larry Kart]

Last season, I think it was, they established that the young Octavian had problems, conceptual and in terms of execution, when it came to sex with women. Pullo took him to a brothel and helped him get over the hump, so to speak, but I'm pretty sure I recall that there were intimations of S&M (or probably just S) -- as though without such trimmings the whole business didn't work for Octavian.

I remember that episode, but don't remember any S or M. He was also seduced by his sister in a different episode.

Guy

I'm pretty sure that he beat or whipped the girl he was with -- the implication being (I think on the basis of a knowing look from the girl afterwards, perhaps directed at Pullo) that the things hadn't been working until then.

BTW, one factual incident that I hope they make room for in the episodes (only two left?) before the end is Octavian's attempt to subdue pirates who have been menacing Roman commerce. Octavian's fleet is scattered and largely destroyed by a storm, then by the pirates, and Octavian washes ashore accompanied (so it is said) by only one companion and so full of fear and despair that he decides to commit suicide, only to be stopped by the companion, who hustles him inland where the two hook up with Roman forces and are saved. The companion would have to be Pullo -- natch. But, again, the whole thing is in the history books.

Edited March 14, 2007 by Larry Kart

[Guy Berger]

BTW, one factual incident that I hope they make room for in the episodes (only two left?) before the end is Octavian's attempt to subdue pirates who have been menacing Roman commerce. Octavian's fleet is scattered and largely destroyed by a storm, then by the pirates, and Octavian washes ashore accompanied (so it is said) by only one companion and so full of fear and despair that he decides to commit suicide, only to be stopped by the companion, who hustles him inland where the two hook up with Roman forces and are saved. The companion would have to be Pullo -- natch. But, again, the whole thing is in the history books.

Larry, I think you are confusing two different incidents:

1) Octavian being shipwrecked in Spain, when he was 17 (mid 40s BC), while Caesar was still alive. I assume the plot in the 1st season episode where Octavian gets kidnapped by barbarians was a nod to this.

2) Octavian's naval battles against Sextus Pompeius (Pompey Magnus's son), who was based in Sicily. This did happen in the 30s BC, between the battles of Philippi and Actium.

Guy

[Larry Kart]

BTW, one factual incident that I hope they make room for in the episodes (only two left?) before the end is Octavian's attempt to subdue pirates who have been menacing Roman commerce. Octavian's fleet is scattered and largely destroyed by a storm, then by the pirates, and Octavian washes ashore accompanied (so it is said) by only one companion and so full of fear and despair that he decides to commit suicide, only to be stopped by the companion, who hustles him inland where the two hook up with Roman forces and are saved. The companion would have to be Pullo -- natch. But, again, the whole thing is in the history books.

Larry, I think you are confusing two different incidents:

1) Octavian being shipwrecked in Spain, when he was 17 (mid 40s BC), while Caesar was still alive. I assume the plot in the 1st season episode where Octavian gets kidnapped by barbarians was a nod to this.

2) Octavian's naval battles against Sextus Pompeius (Pompey Magnus's son), who was based in Sicily. This did happen in the 30s BC, between the battles of Philippi and Actium.

Guy

No -- I meant 2), though you're right that Sextus P. was not a mere pirate, even though his threat to Rome was piratical in nature. From "The Cambridge Ancient History: The Augustan Empire," p. 61, about the campaign against Sextus Pompeius that was launched in 36 B.C. and led to these events in mid-August:

"...Octavian decided to risk a sea-fight, but the superiority of Sextus' seamanship was crushingly demonstrated; Octavian's ships were burnt or wrecked, and though some survivors were rescued ... Octavian himself in the gathering darkness only just managed to evade capture and reached the mainland with but one friend to be by him during the night. So near had Sextus come to success.

"Octavian was utterly exhausted both in body and soul; for one moment even his will and belief broke and he begged his companion to kill him.... But dawn brought help and renewal of hope: he was seen, recognized and escorted to Messalla."

Edited March 15, 2007 by Larry Kart

[Dr. Rat]

I have trouble with I Claudius because, as Larry indicated, it's on videotape. Film is so much better; also, "Rome" has more sex. How can you go wrong?

I, Claudius is pretty low quality [technically] by today's standard, but Rome has its own problems.

The sex in Rome is pretty much of the gratuitous variety, though, reflecting far more on the base motivations of the modern producers than on the base motivations of the characters.

I'd say Rome is essentially a fairly well-done soap opera which uses history as an inspiration. Claudius is more a historical novel--an elaboration on history--with some pretty interesting reflections on power, sex, governance, empire and family.

There is no mind like Graves' behind Rome that I can tell. It pretty much shouts the fact that it is a product of the entertainment industry. Any deep thinking went into the financing and marketing.

By the standards of such products it's well done--like the Sopranos, say. There's enough intelligence in the writing to keep you amused for a while, but for me I can just as easily walk away mid-episode and imagine my own developments. Or read Vidal or Graves or someone else who can imagine better than me.

Edited March 15, 2007 by Dr. Rat

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I have trouble with I Claudius because, as Larry indicated, it's on videotape. Film is so much better; also, "Rome" has more sex. How can you go wrong?

I, Claudius is pretty low quality [technically] by today's standard, but Rome has its own problems.

The sex in Rome is pretty much of the gratuitous variety, though, reflecting far more on the base motivations of the modern producers than on the base motivations of the characters.

I'd say Rome is essentially a fairly well-done soap opera which uses history as an inspiration. Claudius is more a historical novel--an elaboration on history--with some pretty interesting reflections on power, sex, governance, empire and family.

There is no mind like Graves' behind Rome that I can tell. It pretty much shouts the fact that it is a product of the entertainment industry. Any deep thinking went into the financing and marketing.

By the standards of such products it's well done--like the Sopranos, say. There's enough intelligence in the writing to keep you amused for a while, but for me I can just as easily walk away mid-episode and imagine my own developments. Or read Vidal or Graves or someone else who can imagine better than me.

Ah - that's it! Thanks for that.

MG

[Guy Berger]

All good things come to an end...

I felt the last two episodes were a little rushed -- Antony and Cleopatra's relationship was underdeveloped. Also, would have liked to see a little more of Livia (the character!) .

Nevertheless, a worthy companion to I, Claudius.

Guy

Edited March 29, 2007 by Guy

[jazzbo]

This is out on Blu-Ray now. The sound is amazing! Nice soundtrack to this show.