Aging Avant-Garde

[jon abbey]

  Lazaro Vega said:

What's EAI?

At first it sounded like you're talking about Asian improv, then it's electronics -- please clarify for those of not in the know.

the term comes from an abbreviation for Electro-Acoustic Improvisation, but has become a semantically meaningless term to group together a recent area of improvisation, mostly resulting from the collision of the post-AMM euro free improv aesthetic with the stripped down aesthetic of the Tokyo-based "onkyo" set of musicians (Otomo Yoshihide, Taku Sugimoto, Sachiko M, Toshimaru Nakamura, some of Tetuzi Akiyama's work, Ami Yoshida, etc).

[jon abbey]

http://www.bagatellen.com/archives/features/000407.html

[Chuck Nessa]

BTW, not talking about something is a statement by itself.

[Lazaro Vega]

Well, OrkestRova's version of "Ascension" from this year might fall into that catagory or area of exploration, and it was cool -- the electronics became a swirling part of the whole....also a recent Territory Band release on Okka finds that mid to large size band working the plug into the socket, again, to interesting musical sounds.

A recent development in the avant garde is that Go:Organic Orchestra of Adam Rudolph and Yusef Lateef. That's a relatively recent ensemble developing some fascinating textures.

(edit to capitalize the "R" in Rova)

Edited October 26, 2006 by Lazaro Vega

[Larry Kart]

Clem -- When I referred a while back to an Eduard Steuermann recording of Skalkottas's Piano Concerto No. 2 on Arkadia, I was mistaken. The pianist is Georg Hadjinikos. Steuermann plays the Schoenberg Concerto on that disc, and Paul Jacobs and Wolgang Marschner do the Berg Chamber Concerto -- all concert performances from the 1950s, all conducted by Hermann Scherchen.

Edited October 26, 2006 by Larry Kart

[jon abbey]

  Lazaro Vega said:

Well, OrkestRova's version of "Ascension" from this year might fall into that catagory or area of exploration, and it was cool -- the electronics became a swirling part of the whole....also a recent Territory Band release on Okka finds that mid to large size band working the plug into the socket, again, to interesting musical sounds.

FWIW, neither of these projects are EAI, both incorporate musicians from the EAI world (Otomo in the Rova thing, Kevin Drumm and now Lasse Marhaug in the Territory Band), but both projects are deeply rooted in the free jazz aesthetic.

[Lazaro Vega]

Yes they are.

Gerry Hemingway played live on our radio station in duet with John Butcher several years ago and hooked up a midi to his drum set. Some cool sounds but, again, coming from a free jazz aesthetic. I don't think I'd recognize an EAI aesthetic if I heard it at this point, though Laurie Anderson might.

[JSngry]

  jon abbey said:

I think you're David Strauss. I'm actually pretty sure about it, from the last time we went through this. at least this time you remember who I am.

I have had actual cashcheckmoneyorder transactions with Clem, and his name is not neither Dave nor Strauss. So let's move on about that.

[jon abbey]

  Lazaro Vega said:

Yes they are.

Gerry Hemingway played live on our radio station in duet with John Butcher several years ago and hooked up a midi to his drum set. Some cool sounds but, again, coming from a free jazz aesthetic.

yeah, both of those guys (especially John) work in EAI contexts, but that duo isn't really one of them. when I told John I was coming to see them at the Knitting Factory a few years ago, he said "why? you're going to hate it!". I didn't exactly hate it, but the point is made.

back on topic, I'm not sure how successful some kind of "fusion" (sorry to use such a loaded term) between jazz and EAI can be, it seems like oil and water to me. if this is something you are interested in, though, the two 2006 releases by Otomo's New Jazz Orchestra fit the bill. the first is the one I prefer, just titled 'ONJO':

http://www.doubtmusic.com/dmf-102_e.html

with Axel Dorner, Mats Gustafsson and Cor Fuhler as sidemen (!). the strategy here is generally to keep the EAI and the jazz parts separate, one then the other, which is probably why it's reasonably successful.

Otomo's other ONJO disc from this year is a track for track cover of Out To Lunch. I don't think that this (or a cover of Ascension) is avant garde in any way, but it's interesting at least, again with Axel, Cor and Mats supplementing the core Japanese band:

http://www.doubtmusic.com/dmf-108_e.html

[jon abbey]

  JSngry said:

  jon abbey said:

I think you're David Strauss. I'm actually pretty sure about it, from the last time we went through this. at least this time you remember who I am.

I have had actual cashcheckmoneyorder transactions with Clem, and his name is not neither Dave nor Strauss. So let's move on about that.

whatever you say, Jim, but I'm going to stick with my "incorrect" belief. I'm not sure why he doesn't want to be outed, but I'm pretty sure I'm right.

[JSngry]

Well, unless Dave Strauss has a proclivity for cashing checks made out to somebody else, and is in the habit of sending packages with that same name & address on the return address label, then what we have hear is a case of mistaken identity.

Either that or else this Dave Strauss cat is a really slippery SOB.

Not saying that you & Clem shouldn't go ahead and duke it out, just do it straight up, please.

[ep1str0phy]

So we've finally reached Sounds of North American Frogs...

(on a marginally more serious level, that has to be the most infamous curiosity of curiosities--if we're doing better than frogs, than things aren't the worst.)

[jon abbey]

  clementine said:

the superiority complex is fucking absurd.

have you ever read any of your own posts?

and, no, I haven't released a record from musicians from every single country in the world, great point. I wasn't equating Erstwhile and EAI, but I can play that way also, even though I'm just one guy running one label out of my apartment, not a whole genre.

but if you want to list countries, I've released discs by musicians from the US (NYC, Boston, Chicago), the UK, Japan, France, Germany, Switzerland, Canada, New Zealand, Iceland, the Netherlands, Italy, Portugal and Australia. is there another improv label who's covered that much geographic ground in their first 50 releases?

Wolf Eyes are generally pretty boring since Aaron Dilloway left, Braxton collab included. Dilloway's duo with Lasse Marhaug in the ErstQuake fest here a few weeks ago was pretty mindmelting, though, hopefully the recording of that turned out well.

[jon abbey]

  JSngry said:

Not saying that you & Clem shouldn't go ahead and duke it out, just do it straight up, please.

that's all I was trying to do, my real name and his real name.

[jon abbey]

  clementine said:

we think yr a bore, tho if we concentrate really hard

this whole "we" thing is the funniest part of your persona. it's a shame, you know a lot about music, but you're clearly unable to admit that you have blind spots.

[jon abbey]

hehe, Phil Kline. too funny.

[RDK]

  jon abbey said:

back on topic, I'm not sure how successful some kind of "fusion" (sorry to use such a loaded term) between jazz and EAI can be, it seems like oil and water to me.

I know I'm in way over my head here, but ignorance hasn't stopped me before. Don't think I've ever heard any EAI - and don't think I'd probably dig it all that much given the sound of it here - but while I've no doubt that EAI may be avant-garde (or avant-gourde if you'd rather), Jon's description above makes me wonder if it can even be considered "jazz."

[jon abbey]

  RDK said:

  jon abbey said:

back on topic, I'm not sure how successful some kind of "fusion" (sorry to use such a loaded term) between jazz and EAI can be, it seems like oil and water to me.

I know I'm in way over my head here, but ignorance hasn't stopped me before. Don't think I've ever heard any EAI - and don't think I'd probably dig it all that much given the sound of it here - but while I've no doubt that EAI may be avant-garde (or avant-gourde if you'd rather), Jon's description above makes me wonder if it can even be considered "jazz."

no, it can't. my original point in posting was that there is no avant-garde (in the actual sense of the word) in jazz anymore, and there's likely never going to be any ever again. as the previously cited John Butcher says, "jazz is a historical genre".

Edited October 26, 2006 by jon abbey

[michel1969]

speaking about "avant" or "arriere" garde.... listen to julien lourau's "fire ad foget" two CD's. or meshell ndegeocello's "dance of the infidels"

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

  clementine said:

on the other hand, Lazaro, dig on this--

Thanks for posting this. Must dig the LP out. Does your copy have the little note from Fela apologising for the fault?

  clementine said:

teachers don't teach me no nonsense,

Unlike Ay stealin, this one's an effin' bore, Clem.

MG

[Tom Storer]

  jon abbey said:

as the previously cited John Butcher says, "jazz is a historical genre".

He may well be correct, but personally I have no problem with that. As someone once said somewhere, "If jazz is dead, I'll feast on the carcass."

[clifford_thornton]

Ersatz Abbey (Inc.) mentioned Tetuzi Akiyama.

I'm not really all that interested in any of his uber-quiet shit (though the folk-blues improv oddities are nice). HOWEVER, his "electric boogie guitar" shit is unreal. If there'r followers, then maybe even "advance gourd." Basically taking blues-rock riffage and setting up subtle phase shifts, turning them into profound statements of minimal music/process music while also going through the mechanics of playing riff-rock electric guitar. Not that the music is "mechanical" (very soulful in fact), but it seems like he's taking a souped-up GTO out for a test drive on an open highway. "Fast Machine" is all I gotta say... well worth checking out.

Edit: 2 hrs. sleep, hope this makes sense.

Edited October 26, 2006 by clifford_thornton

[paul secor]

This thread has gotten REAL ugly. Don't think I want to read any more.

BUT - clem is right - Sounds of North American Frogs IS a cool record.

[clifford_thornton]

  clementine said:

* Boris are insane genius Japanese "avant" metal band that do everything from pure feedback swells for a long time to the most amazing 21st century Sabbath you've ever heard. in that charming Japanese way, they have a fascination w/provocative geture & their graphic design arm is called Fangs Anal Satan-- three of my favorite things anyway. It's what we mean when we say if you want a serious (but also very funny) appropriation of ROCK, go to Japan. maybe you've heard or seen The Boredoms?

PSF = Psychedelic Speed Freaks. High Rise!!!

[jon abbey]

  clementine said:

it is NOT that broad or varied a genre... UNLESS THE PROCESS appeals to you. if you enjoy building yr own stereo equipment or ever put a computer together from a kit. otherwise, two or three examples will suffice to learn 1) oh, this is kinda OK, i can see down that road 2) turn around because that road ain't changing much when you shuck so much else of what we like abt music.

oh, silly rabbit, you're still sticking with the "we" construction? I'd be more impressed if along the way to writing off an area of music, you'd mentioned a single EAI record or musician, but I doubt you've really heard much of it. the Teitelbaum stuff you cite also doesn't fit, although he was certainly working with live electronics early on (I was in the front row at that 1994 Merkin show that got released).

  Quote

that's not very Zen-like, if you wanna be frontin' Japanese.

racist.

  Quote

Boris are insane genius Japanese "avant" metal band that do everything from pure feedback swells for a long time to the most amazing 21st century Sabbath you've ever heard. in that charming Japanese way, they have a fascination w/provocative geture & their graphic design arm is called Fangs Anal Satan-- three of my favorite things anyway. It's what we mean when we say if you want a serious (but also very funny) appropriation of ROCK, go to Japan. maybe you've heard or seen The Boredoms?

Boris are a sometimes good Japanese rock band. the Boredoms were done being interesting about a decade back, coincidentally around the time THE REAL D. STRAUSS stopped paying much attention to music.