Roger Farbey Posted October 21, 2006 Report Share Posted October 21, 2006 And they include a double Harry Beckett (Warm Smiles/Themes for Fega); New Jazz Orchestra (Western Reunion - 1st ever issue in stereo) and Michael Garrick (Home Stretch Blues). There's also a John Surman (How Many Clouds) but that was reissued previously about 5-6 yrs ago by Universal (when they were still Polygram) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ep1str0phy Posted October 21, 2006 Report Share Posted October 21, 2006 Who's in the lineup on the NJO album? I'm only somewhat familiar with the ensemble, but I recall several 'faces' in the group (Carr, Lowther, Heckstall-Smith...?). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidewinder Posted October 22, 2006 Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 Who's in the lineup on the NJO album? I'm only somewhat familiar with the ensemble, but I recall several 'faces' in the group (Carr, Lowther, Heckstall-Smith...?). THE NEW JAZZ ORCHESTRA WESTERN REUNION LONDON 1965 ORIGINAL DECCA LP LK 4690 (1965) FIRST TIME IN STEREO Big P (Heath) Shades of Blue (Ardley) So What (Davis arr Carter; Rutherford) If You Could See Me Now* Tiny’s Blues (T & A Kahn arr Gelly) Milestones (Davis arr Carter) Django (Lewis arr Ardley) Maria (Bernstein arr Carter; Sondheim) Western Reunion (Mulligan arr Ardley) Full personnel: Neil Ardley (leader) Bob Leaper, Mike Phillipson, Tony Dudley (trumpets) Ian Carr (trumpet, flügelhorn) Mick Palmer (French horn) John Mumford, Paul Rutherford (trombones) Peter Harvey (bass trombone) Dick Hart (tuba) Les Carter (flute, alto flute) Trevor Watts (alto sax, flute) Barbara Thompson (alto sax) Dave Gelly, Tom Harris (tenor saxes) Sebastian Freudenberg (baritone sax) Mike Barrett (piano) Tony Reeves (bass) John Hiseman (drums) *Lionel Grigson (piano) replaces Mike Barrett CDSML 8427 Looking forward to getting this one - and having it in stereo is a huge bonus, as the Decca vinyl original was only in mono. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ep1str0phy Posted October 22, 2006 Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 That's almost the Colosseum rhythm section. How's Hiseman on this one (flexible enough?)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidewinder Posted October 22, 2006 Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 That's almost the Colosseum rhythm section. How's Hiseman on this one (flexible enough?)? I've only heard snippets of this LP but the early Hiseman is very much jazz-grounded. He did some great work around this time, with Mike Taylor ('Trio' on Columbia Lansdowne) and Dick Heckstall -Smith. Amazing to see Barbara Thompson also in the lineup back in 1965. She must have been pretty young (still a sudent, perhaps?). Of all the Dutton Vocalion reissues, this is the one that is firing me up the most.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ep1str0phy Posted October 22, 2006 Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 Yeah, Jack Bruce was on the Mike Taylor (seen but not heard). Hiseman can be sorta rockish, and not always in the service of the music. I'm excited, too (a great cast--and Rutherford, free improv doyen, is in the mix!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest the mommy Posted October 22, 2006 Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 hiseman is pretty decent on peter lemer's ESP disc from 1966. reeves also on that one. sidewinder-is "home stretch blues" better than "the heart is a lotus"? i didn't like that one, though i liked "troppo" a lot. "troppo" seemed more original to me, whereas "heart is a lotus" felt like part of it were forced and inauthenticly bluesy and ethnic. "troppo" was much more integrated. i am very excited for these beckett discs. i really like "flare up" and imagine these two sound very much the same? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidewinder Posted October 22, 2006 Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 (edited) hiseman is pretty decent on peter lemer's ESP disc from 1966. reeves also on that one. sidewinder-is "home stretch blues" better than "the heart is a lotus"? i didn't like that one, though i liked "troppo" a lot. "troppo" seemed more original to me, whereas "heart is a lotus" felt like part of it were forced and inauthenticly bluesy and ethnic. "troppo" was much more integrated. i am very excited for these beckett discs. i really like "flare up" and imagine these two sound very much the same? I've never heard 'Home Stretch Blues' but I've heard great things about it - and the lineup with Don Rendell etc. looks really good. Will definitely pick that one up. 'Heart Is A Lotus' was a bit of a disappointment for me too, I'm afraid. Didn't really grab me (must have another listen). I believe that 'Heart Is a Lotus' sold the most LP copies of all the Garrick Argos and that was no more than about 800 I've heard - so that gives you an idea of how scarce these are in good condition. Must pick up the CD of 'Troppo' before it disappears off the face of the Earth.. I have the Harry Beckett 'Warm Smiles' LP on RCA and really like it (quite spacy in parts). Haven't heard 'Themes For Fega' (Mongezi?) so will pick up the CD too to check that one out. Maybe Clifford can pipe in re: thoughts on the 'Fega'? Edited October 22, 2006 by sidewinder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidewinder Posted October 22, 2006 Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 Yeah, Jack Bruce was on the Mike Taylor (seen but not heard). Still available on the 'Impressed Repressed' CD reissue (Universal). A gem ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ep1str0phy Posted October 22, 2006 Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 I'm a huge fan of Bruce, especially the first few solo albums (Songs for A Tailor, Harmony Row...)... but I'm extremely wary of his acoustic jazz material. I sometimes feel as if the arena rock thing winds up imprinting in the end--and, for the life of me, I have yet to hear an acoustic Bruce album where he doesn't sound like he's trying to pummel the instrument into the back rows. A sense of 'lightness' is important for a lot of modern improv contexts--not so much 'light toned,' though, as 'flexible'... it's something that doesn't always register for stadium-tested, electricity-driven bassists like Bruce (and a lot of guys who've had to cope with coming out of rock or jazz-rock contexts--post-Colosseum Hiseman, for sure... and look at post-Lifetime Tony Williams!). That's my two cents, anyway. On the other hand, I do enjoy the Lemer ESP that Hiseman plays on (it sounds like a less groovy Andrew Hill), and there's something endearing about Things We Like. Maybe, then, I will check out the big band and the Mike Taylor... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzscot Posted October 22, 2006 Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 Roger is one of the double HARRY BECKETT CDs a LIVE recording? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Farbey Posted October 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 (edited) I'm a huge fan of Bruce, especially the first few solo albums (Songs for A Tailor, Harmony Row...)... but I'm extremely wary of his acoustic jazz material. I sometimes feel as if the arena rock thing winds up imprinting in the end--and, for the life of me, I have yet to hear an acoustic Bruce album where he doesn't sound like he's trying to pummel the instrument into the back rows. A sense of 'lightness' is important for a lot of modern improv contexts--not so much 'light toned,' though, as 'flexible'... it's something that doesn't always register for stadium-tested, electricity-driven bassists like Bruce (and a lot of guys who've had to cope with coming out of rock or jazz-rock contexts--post-Colosseum Hiseman, for sure... and look at post-Lifetime Tony Williams!). That's my two cents, anyway. On the other hand, I do enjoy the Lemer ESP that Hiseman plays on (it sounds like a less groovy Andrew Hill), and there's something endearing about Things We Like. Maybe, then, I will check out the big band and the Mike Taylor... Jon Hiseman is actually a jazz drummer who plays jazz rock. He shouldn't be underestimated for his style. He's a precisionist in the Rich vein but has his own style and technical is pretty much flawless. You should hear him on any of the United Jazz and Rock Ensemble albums. Or on the NJO's Le Dejeuner Sur L'Herbe. Also Bruce is a jazz musician (Things We Like, Escalator Over the Hill, Turn it Over) who makes his money by playing rock. In much the same way Ginger Baker does. Except that Baker has made it clear he despises rock music. Hiuseman is more circumspect. Bruce and Hiseman have made substantial contributions to jazz. Baker, Bruce, Hiseman, Heckstall-Smith and McLaughlin all cut their teeth with the Graham Bond Organisation which was a pivotal nexus between jazz and rock. Incidentally, although it is termpting to dismiss Colosseum as just another jazz rock band, I haven't heard many other (any actually) of these bands attempt to play Mike Gibbs Tanglewood '63 and do it that well. Edited October 22, 2006 by Roger Farbey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ep1str0phy Posted October 22, 2006 Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 (edited) No, don't get me wrong--I'm well aware of Bruce, Baker, and Hiseman's respective histories, not least their contributions to British jazz as an institution. I think it's questionable, however, that any one of them should be characterized as a 'jazz' musician--especially because the three of them (apart and together) have spent as much time (probably more) performing and recording 'non-jazz' music as they have playing in jazz contexts. Ginger has had his African/Afrobeat/groove fixation--sometimes veering over into free jazz and modern free improv--Hiseman went full on rock with Colosseum II and now (there are interviews about this) practices a more beat-heavy, relatively sparse drum style (informed by Stevie Wonder, of all people), sometimes lapsing into the old 'fire and brimstone' routine, and Bruce has been all over the place--Latin/jazz-rock albums with Kip Hanrahan, early jazz-rock with Lifetime, pseudo-theatrical jazz-rock with Carla Bley and that How's Tricks band, straight-up free improv (I have an album of his where he plays with John Stevens, of all people), the 'golden oldies' route with Cream, and of course Bruce's patented, all-over-the-map solo style (been doin' it for ages now). Even if it is all jazz informed, there is certainly a cross-fertilization of styles in play that blurs the genres. They're all great players and true individuals--but they're not 'pure' jazz players in the sense that, say Paul Chambers was... they're among a generation of musicians who took the music to very, very different places relative to where it was before. When they do come back inside, it's hard to think that they're really a part of that 'pure' world anymore (if they ever were). Jack Bruce, no matter what instrument he picks up, will always be 1/3rd of West, Bruce, and Laing--and it shows. Right on you, though--this isn't to outright dismiss their chops. I just have issues with how well suited their styles are for more traditional, 'swinging' rhythmic contexts--and maybe it's just an abhorrence of difference showing, I don't know. But agreed: I can scarcely name another group who did what Colosseum did at that level and as well. Edited October 22, 2006 by ep1str0phy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted October 22, 2006 Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 I've wanted to get those Beckett LPs for years - this'll be the chance to finally have 'em in some form. I also look forward to the NJO. Can't speak from a perspective of Colosseum familiarity w/r/t Hiseman, but he is on some excellent jazz records from the late '60s (add Howard Riley's Discussions on Opportunity) and plays excellently loose freebop in that context. I would patently disagree with Lemer as an Andrew Hill stylist; ambiguous, sure, but way more rhythmically left-field than most of Hill's work. Bley I would say is a closer connection. I really like that Local Colour LP a lot, and wish he'd recorded more with his own band. I would like to hear the Mike Taylor - that'll be on my list too I suppose. The vinyl is rather scarce on that one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ep1str0phy Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 There are a few Bley compositions on the Lemer, right? As far as the Lemer/Hill connection--I sense a sort of dramatic tension and fluidity to Lemer's work that reminds me of Hill's more aggressive Blue Note sides. There's that same sort of 'rush'--although I'm not sure as to the theoretical (read: structural) difference between the two musicians. Knowing the cats on the Lemer album, those guys could play just about anything. A special shout out to George Khan, saxist on the Lemer ESP album and member of the Battered Ornaments--one of my favorite (unsung) post-Ayler stylisits. On Becketts--how do these stack up (stylistically)? He's all over the map in these days--Collier, the Brotherhood of Breath, Ray Russell... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidewinder Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 The vinyl is rather scarce on that one! An understatement ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 There are a few Bley compositions on the Lemer, right? Just "Ictus," which gets pretty far from the theme in the ensuing improvisations. The LP is supposedly more "tuneful" than their live performances, which were apparently pretty far-out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Farbey Posted October 24, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2006 (edited) No, don't get me wrong--I'm well aware of Bruce, Baker, and Hiseman's respective histories, not least their contributions to British jazz as an institution. I think it's questionable, however, that any one of them should be characterized as a 'jazz' musician--especially because the three of them (apart and together) have spent as much time (probably more) performing and recording 'non-jazz' music as they have playing in jazz contexts. ep1str0phy - some said that very same thing about Miles! Seriously though, I am ploughing my way through the first Beckett Vocalion (Warm Smiles) and find it so far very different to his first (Flare Up). I'll need to play it a couple more times to formulate any kind of opinion. Edited October 24, 2006 by Roger Farbey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted October 24, 2006 Report Share Posted October 24, 2006 I wasn't all that into Warm Smiles when I heard it a few years ago; Themes for Fega seems more interesting (no Mongezi connection; named, I believe, for a critic/writer whom Beckett respected). Will definitely pick up this set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest the mommy Posted October 24, 2006 Report Share Posted October 24, 2006 wait..what the hell is going on here? why don't people like warm smiles? i have never heard it but was going to order it ASAP. it isn't so good? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidewinder Posted October 25, 2006 Report Share Posted October 25, 2006 (edited) Just listening to the 'Warm Smiles' LP. I would say that anyone who liked 'Flare Up' will probably enjoy this one too. It has a typical early 70s vibe with John Taylor featured quite a bit on electric piano. Not the greatest of recordings though by RCA - a bit mushy. Beckett is his typically lyrical self throughout. More 'mellow' though than on 'Flare Up'. Edited October 25, 2006 by sidewinder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Farbey Posted October 25, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2006 Just listening to the 'Warm Smiles' LP. I would say that anyone who liked 'Flare Up' will probably enjoy this one too. It has a typical early 70s vibe with John Taylor featured quite a bit on electric piano. Not the greatest of recordings though by RCA - a bit mushy. Beckett is his typically lyrical self throughout. More 'mellow' though than on 'Flare Up'. Yes I'd go along with this - definitely worth getting but has a different, more laid-back feel than Flare Up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted October 25, 2006 Report Share Posted October 25, 2006 wait..what the hell is going on here? why don't people like warm smiles? i have never heard it but was going to order it ASAP. it isn't so good? Check it out - you might like it. I just was expecting a more Graham Collier-feel and didn't quite get what I was hoping for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Farbey Posted October 26, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2006 Just listening to the 'Warm Smiles' LP. I would say that anyone who liked 'Flare Up' will probably enjoy this one too. It has a typical early 70s vibe with John Taylor featured quite a bit on electric piano. Not the greatest of recordings though by RCA - a bit mushy. Beckett is his typically lyrical self throughout. More 'mellow' though than on 'Flare Up'. Yes I'd go along with this - definitely worth getting but has a different, more laid-back feel than Flare Up. I'd go along with Clifford, was expecting more of an (early) Graham Collier but Warm Smiles is really growing on me now (3rd play). Gets better on every listen. Fega (1st cursory hearing) is interesting too. This is a 'must have' two-fer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Not sure this is the best place, but just got me my shipping confirmation for a copy of "Child Song", finally! Don't we all love them socks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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