Pharoah Sanders

[JSngry]

Besides these records, I own the ESP, which is almost like the same problem that Ayler had on 'My Name is Albert Ayler' where Pharoah is fighting a really straight-laced band.

You think so? I don't hear it that way at all. I hear it as a typical "practicing" jam session, the kind that's different from the staged public kind. I hear Pharoah ebbing and flowing in terms of inspiration, playing through it all. It's the way real jam sessions sound. As for the band, Jane Getz is no slouch, even if she's no Titan either. The rest of the band is jam-session caliber, I think.

The difference for me is that everybody was more or less on the same page. Pharoah in 1964 was not the Pharoah of a year later. Ayler, otoh, was aready someplace else, far removed from his what his accompaniment could even begin to think about.

I understand what you are saying, and agreed, Ayler was way ahead of Pharoah, but I see these two sessions as being identical in terms of circumstance only. With Ayler, NHOP was on bass, who I don't consider to be a slouch, but he in fact played pretty much inside on that date. And on the ESP date, Jane Getz may be a key player, but she was pretty much playing inside too (as I think she was on the Mingus live date as well). My only point was that there are two players that were pushing ahead, and they were stuck with forward-thinking bands. The only difference is that Ayler and Pharoah recorded about two years apart. Ayler though, as you indicated, is in another bag, and that bag I respect tremondously. Pharoah had his work cut for him and he too was trying to push out, but he was stuck in a similar circumstance as Ayler, it just happen that Ayler was stuck with a similar band just two years prior.

Well see, I don't think that Pharoah thinking at the time of this date (Sept. 1964, right?) was as fully formed as Ayler's was. The guy's plaing changes and he sounds like he's into playing changes. You can hear him working on shit as he goes along. You wouldn't be doing it like that if you were totally convinced that it was going to be a dead end. Sure, he no doubt had some other stuff going on at the time, but his approach here tells me that he had not ruled out playing changes as something that he was going to continue to do (and in fact hasn't done, although that's only obvious now).

Ayler, otoh, was fully convinced that his way was going to be it for him. You can tell right away that playing chages is something that he is so not going to be thinking about, much less actually doing. He's fully gone from that way and has made a full committment to his way. To me, that's the difference.

Another way to look at it is this - if Pharoah hadn't have gotten the gig w/Trane, how would he have been playing in 1966? Of course there's no way to really know, but the depth of his commitment on the ESP side leads me to wonder if maybe, just maybe, the platform of the Coltrane gig, and all that it entailed, forced the issue for him in a way that it might not have otherwise been forced. Pure speculation, that is, but...

[clifford_thornton]

Wasn't he playing with cats like Charles Moffett, Don Cherry, Byron Allen and Alan Shorter prior to his commitment to Trane's group? I guess that implies more of a "free-bop" thing, but...

[Guy Berger]

One thing that bothers me a little about Karma is the combination of flute and French horn in the background.

Guy

[jazzbo]

Wasn't he playing with cats like Charles Moffett, Don Cherry, Byron Allen and Alan Shorter prior to his commitment to Trane's group? I guess that implies more of a "free-bop" thing, but...

And. . .Sun Ra.

[clifford_thornton]

Sun WHO?

[JSngry]

Wasn't he playing with cats like Charles Moffett, Don Cherry, Byron Allen and Alan Shorter prior to his commitment to Trane's group? I guess that implies more of a "free-bop" thing, but...

And, as noted, Ra. But there's nothing/nobody there - even Ra - that would have forced the issue so resolutely out of the realm of change-playing, even if freely, than getting the handoff from Trane in 1965-66. You had to go there, and go there all the way. There simply was no other option.

[AndrewHill]

Besides these records, I own the ESP, which is almost like the same problem that Ayler had on 'My Name is Albert Ayler' where Pharoah is fighting a really straight-laced band.

You think so? I don't hear it that way at all. I hear it as a typical "practicing" jam session, the kind that's different from the staged public kind. I hear Pharoah ebbing and flowing in terms of inspiration, playing through it all. It's the way real jam sessions sound. As for the band, Jane Getz is no slouch, even if she's no Titan either. The rest of the band is jam-session caliber, I think.

The difference for me is that everybody was more or less on the same page. Pharoah in 1964 was not the Pharoah of a year later. Ayler, otoh, was aready someplace else, far removed from his what his accompaniment could even begin to think about.

I understand what you are saying, and agreed, Ayler was way ahead of Pharoah, but I see these two sessions as being identical in terms of circumstance only. With Ayler, NHOP was on bass, who I don't consider to be a slouch, but he in fact played pretty much inside on that date. And on the ESP date, Jane Getz may be a key player, but she was pretty much playing inside too (as I think she was on the Mingus live date as well). My only point was that there are two players that were pushing ahead, and they were stuck with forward-thinking bands. The only difference is that Ayler and Pharoah recorded about two years apart. Ayler though, as you indicated, is in another bag, and that bag I respect tremondously. Pharoah had his work cut for him and he too was trying to push out, but he was stuck in a similar circumstance as Ayler, it just happen that Ayler was stuck with a similar band just two years prior.

Well see, I don't think that Pharoah thinking at the time of this date (Sept. 1964, right?) was as fully formed as Ayler's was. The guy's plaing changes and he sounds like he's into playing changes. You can hear him working on shit as he goes along. You wouldn't be doing it like that if you were totally convinced that it was going to be a dead end. Sure, he no doubt had some other stuff going on at the time, but his approach here tells me that he had not ruled out playing changes as something that he was going to continue to do (and in fact hasn't done, although that's only obvious now).

Ayler, otoh, was fully convinced that his way was going to be it for him. You can tell right away that playing chages is something that he is so not going to be thinking about, much less actually doing. He's fully gone from that way and has made a full committment to his way. To me, that's the difference.

Another way to look at it is this - if Pharoah hadn't have gotten the gig w/Trane, how would he have been playing in 1966? Of course there's no way to really know, but the depth of his commitment on the ESP side leads me to wonder if maybe, just maybe, the platform of the Coltrane gig, and all that it entailed, forced the issue for him in a way that it might not have otherwise been forced. Pure speculation, that is, but...

Ok, I listened to both My Name is AA and Pharoah's First today and I see the point you're making. The similarity that I was bringing to light only concerns the rhythm sections and not the leaders. I guess the way I see it is that Albert's band was really not prepared for something of that caliber, nor do they seem convinced of his new brand of music; whereas Pharoah's band was just simply trying to play as out as they possibly could, although it seems that they were not completely comfortable with the circumstances, especially Stan Foster (surprisingly, Jane Getz seems to embrace the moment). Hence, Ayler's band seems baffled in the implied sense, whereas Pharoah seems to be just downright fustrated with his band. Regardless, I like both of these albums quite a bit and I wasn't trying to say that they are the same musically speaking. I think though that both Ayler and Pharoah were trying to do their own thing and were met with largely unresponsive rhythm sections.

[AndrewHill]

Jane's playing is fine on that Pharaoh (and enjoy it on the Mingus Jazz Workshop side too), but I have to wonder how things would've differed sans piano. Patillo can swing - dig the first Simmons on ESP for more proof - and Bennett and Foster could certainly keep things rolling. Just a thought.

Still need a clean LP copy of Live at the East...

Jane Getz is indeed a fine player. Nothing really flashy but a solid player nonetheless. I'm also a fan of both of Sonny's ESP's, especially the first one. Manhatten Egos is another favorite along with the Contemporary's of the early 70's. Barbara Donald's contributions are rather valuable in their own right.

Edited May 8, 2007 by Holy Ghost

[AndrewHill]

One thing that bothers me a little about Karma is the combination of flute and French horn in the background.

Guy

Its Julius Watkins and James Spaulding though -_- .

[7/4]

One thing that bothers me a little about Karma is the combination of flute and French horn in the background.

Guy

Why? It's a nice combination.

[Guy Berger]

One thing that bothers me a little about Karma is the combination of flute and French horn in the background.

Guy

Why? It's a nice combination.

It gives the album a lushy-mushy sound that I don't like.

Guy

[7/4]

One thing that bothers me a little about Karma is the combination of flute and French horn in the background.

Why? It's a nice combination.

It gives the album a lushy-mushy sound that I don't like.

Guy

Yeah, dismiss me with some sophisticated musicologist shrubbery.

I'll listen to it later and see what I think then.

[Guy Berger]

There's a bass riff near the end of Black Unity that really reminds me of another bass riff on Mike Oldfield's Tubular Bells. Anybody know what I am talking about? I think it's the part right before the hilarious recitation of the musical instruments.

Guy

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

whos this john kelemmer guy on cadet and why does he think hes the white Phaorah Sanders?

[clifford_thornton]

whos this john kelemmer guy on cadet and why does he think hes the white Phaorah Sanders?

You are killing me. I mean, really, stop...

[clifford_thornton]

Haven't heard Karma in years. Wasn't so into it then, but it was a) not the first Pharoah I'd bought and b) not "in context" of the music's release. Not that that matters to me, but it seems to often around here. If I saw a clean vinyl copy of it, though, I'd probably pick it up again...

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Haven't heard Karma in years. Wasn't so into it then, but it was a) not the first Pharoah I'd bought and b) not "in context" of the music's release. Not that that matters to me, but it seems to often around here. If I saw a clean vinyl copy of it, though, I'd probably pick it up again...

The past is another country. If you didn't live it, it requires as much effort to understand as does another country (and its music).

MG

[Shrdlu]

Pharoah's "Message From Home" album is fantastic, and it always reminds me of the Impulse days - the vibe and the studio sound. You should check that one out. There are some fabulous grooves and some very catchy melodies. It makes you want to join in. My kids like it a lot, and we used to grab some home-made percussion and play along with some of it. There is a lot of Trane there, too. Pharoah has sounded more like Trane in recent years than he did when he played with him, and we now get to hear the lyrical side of him as well as the fiery screeches.

[Niko]

Pharoah's "Message From Home" album is fantastic, and it always reminds me of the Impulse days - the vibe and the studio sound. You should check that one out. There are some fabulous grooves and some very catchy melodies. It makes you want to join in. My kids like it a lot, and we used to grab some home-made percussion and play along with some of it. There is a lot of Trane there, too. Pharoah has sounded more like Trane in recent years than he did when he played with him, and we now get to hear the lyrical side of him as well as the fiery screeches.

and i always thought i was the only one who liked it... ( )

[Shrdlu]

Du bist nicht allein!

[jazzbo]

I like it too!

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

So do I!

(It's my age y'know; I need reminding about things I like!)

MG

[Niko]

[Hardbopjazz]

I just saw Pharoah and his quartet tonight. What a great musician. I thought to resurrect this thread from several years back. At 74 he is playing great.

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

great pics dawg, saw him in nov.- my 1st time seein him since he was 58 yrs old. now hes 74. thats a long time. its really weird, after such a long wait, now comming up again, next month, it appears hes going to be back as a "special guest" of an electric trio....stanley jordan, charnett moffet playing electric bs, and tain watts. any of you know of this collaboration? every time ive ever seen him its been w/ his own acoustic band....im definetly goin....