Daniel A Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 Not that I really need to ask you this, because I'm convinced what the answer should be, but I was stunned and slightly irritated about the reaction from an eBay seller. I won an auction for an LP from France (quite cheap, I must admit - shipping was twice the price of the LP). It was stated as 'VG+'. While the record is glossy and looks rather decent at a very quick glance, there are a couple of really serious scratches. Less than 30 seconds into the first track, there are at least four skips within ten seconds. I made an MP3 sound clip of the first minute of playback and mailed it to the seller, who has 99.9% positive feedback, and had already left positive feedback for me as soon as payment had been sent. I specified the time range where the skips were. To my astonishment the seller then tells me he cannot hear any problems. He would have graded it 'EX' if it didn't have certain "defects", which is to be expected for a 'VG+' record'. He goes on suggestsing that I only buy 'EX' or possibly 'VG++' discs, because "one cannot require of a VG+ disc to be in very good state". Then he sent me a refund anyway. But why would he take that somewhat unreasonable position if he would nevertheless refund the money? If he doesn't hear the skips, I can't understand how he can be dealing with used LPs at all. My limited experience of buying LPs from eBay is that sellers tend to overgrade even more now than a couple of years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidewinder Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 From my experience a bit of crackling is sometimes encountered with the VG+ rating but never a skip. Sounds like a 'G' at best. Dontcha just love it when these idiots grade this way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter A Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 A VG+ graded record should not skip. However, the problem is that most sellers only visually grade their records. Sometimes a scuff or scratch does click - or even skip - and sometimes it does not sound at all. I have had so so experiences with buying VG+ graded records. Nowadays I only bid on NM graded records, unless I know a seller quite well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel1969 Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 Two tips : NEVER bid high on a VG+ record on Ebay. VG+ on ebay = trashed, that's my rule. So i bid accordingly to a trashed record, if i want it as a filler. And i let another one buy it, most of the times. BE CAREFUL with french dealers. I know them (see where i live and you'll know why)... they always upgrade on Ebay (And many of them will ask you for 5% paypal fees, and some others are furiously psycho, but that's another debate) Apparently yours is also def. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Beat Steve Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 Just one question on the side: Doesn't the condition of the stylus play a pretty important role too? I've found some of my (carefully handled and visually very good but well-played ) records that used to skip at certain places to stop skipping all of a sudden when the stylus was replaced with a new one (as we all periodically do, I guess). Just a light pop was audible where the record used to skip. Apart from that, the problem with VG+ (if I go by my - admittedly not exhaustive - experience) is that some scratches that you can actually feel will never skip whereas others that do not look that bad will cause the record to skip for sure. Don't ask me why ... Could it be that some vinyls will stand more abuse than others before they start to skip all over the place? That's the problem with visual grading, just like Peter A said. I'd expect some pops, ticks and crackles with VG+ anytime, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel A Posted October 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 I agree with all of you. I should have known better, really... Apart from that, the problem with VG+ (if I go by my - admittedly not exhaustive - experience) is that some scratches that you can actually feel will never skip whereas others that do not look that bad will cause the record to skip for sure. Absolutely true. And I suppose the state of the stylus matters, as well as the counterweight and anti-skating settings, etc. My stylus is not new, but I think it's good enough. None of my other ever LPs skips, and some of them are "true VG", perhaps even true "VG-"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 One skip on an otherwise VG+ vinyl might be OK as long as it is clearly indicated by the seller and it is the only major flaw on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Beat Steve Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 Another thought on this often-used VG+ grade: If I think the Goldmine grading criteria closely over, somehow I feel there is a HUGE gap between the Goldmine quality grading of an "infrequently played" VG+ and a VG with "countless spins" (as well as their "loss of gloss" criteria, etc.). I'd figure that A LOT of well-played but well cared for LP's fall into the range in between these two descriptions (maybe even the one that Daniel A bought?). How to grade these? Is there anything like "VG and a half"? Note that I am no record dealer at all but I guess records in this condition aren't easy to grade if you neither want to downgrade your own stuff overconservatively (seeing that many buyers seem to think anything "VG" is totally trashy and worn out beyond recall) nor want to fall into the nitpickers' traps . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 I've occasionally made skips disappear by deep cleaning the affected area. Sometime it'll be a piece of crud in there (not always visible, btw) that's causing the skip, not groove damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Dryden Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 Obviously, no dealer can possibly do anything other than visually inspect the covers and vinyl. But I would be hesitant to list LPs with visible scratches on ebay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 Obviously, no dealer can possibly do anything other than visually inspect the covers and vinyl. But I would be hesitant to list LPs with visible scratches on ebay. Obviously? You mean that no dealer can actually listen to a record before selling it? Really? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter A Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 Apart from that, the problem with VG+ (if I go by my - admittedly not exhaustive - experience) is that some scratches that you can actually feel will never skip whereas others that do not look that bad will cause the record to skip for sure. Don't ask me why ... Could it be that some vinyls will stand more abuse than others before they start to skip all over the place? You hit the nail on the head. For instance Blue Note LP's, especially the older ones, often play without problems, even if they have heavy and feelable scratches. I have a couple of abused early Blue notes, w/ flat edge and Lexington labels, which really play quite well! Slightly scratched or scuffed LP's on other labels, for instance Riverside, often sound much worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel A Posted October 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 (edited) Then the question is: If a record is stated as visually graded "VG+", looks like a "VG+" but skips all the time - is it still graded correctly? Edit: the record I got did not even look like "VG+", but on the other hand; the scratch which caused the skips did not look as bad as some others. Edited October 13, 2006 by Daniel A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmitry Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 Then the question is: If a record is stated as visually graded "VG+", looks like a "VG+" but skips all the time - is it still graded correctly? Edit: the record I got did not even look like "VG+", but on the other hand; the scratch which caused the skips did not look as bad as some others. Obviously the record was graded dishonestly by the seller. What is his handle on eBay? I will stay way from buying his Lps. Same thing happened to me when I bought a $50 Lp from a heavy-hittin' eBay seller atomic_records a few years ago. They graded it as Vg+ or NM-, I don't remember now; Lp had a major scratch along one side. It took them over a month and several emails from me to issue a refund after I sent the Lp back to them. Since then I've stayed away from their auctions, even though they list some tempting records from time to time. Their feedback is nearly impecable, fwiw. Perhaps they've straightened out their act... http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...=atomic_records Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 I've bought several nice albums from Atomic and never had a problem. A few observations/questions: How was the remainder of the LP aside from the first thirty seconds? Its clear to me that a combination of VG+ and "visually graded" has the strong potential for being in worse condition and as someone stated above, you should bid accordingly. I'm glad to see a Frenchman brought up the possibility of a deaf psychotic French dealer, because honestly, my first reaction was that this was the stereotypical response of a haughty, superior French dude. He's going to tell you all the reason you're wrong, and then give you a refund "anyway". When he clicked "send", believe me, he was thinking "Stupid American." Finally, I do not have an expensive TT or even use my turntable for pleasurable listening. It set up in the office and hooked up to the PC to make audio transfers. So, I tend to be much more forgiving on mis-grades so long as I can clean the record up digitally and get rid of all pops and clicks. Massive skipping is another thing altogether, but most VG+ LPs I've bought have turned out to be very listenable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel1969 Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 I'm glad to see a Frenchman brought up the possibility of a deaf psychotic French dealer, because honestly, my first reaction was that this was the stereotypical response of a haughty, superior French dude. He's going to tell you all the reason you're wrong, and then give you a refund "anyway". When he clicked "send", believe me, he was thinking "Stupid American." Well, i can tell you that i have bought many records from french dealers, and i have not a high esteem about the way they manage their business. Anyway, i'm french and i have experienced the same kind of reaction... So i don't really think the nationality is in question. But it is also true, and i assume, that French records sellers on (and off) ebay are NOT easy to deal with (to say the least). I could tell you a hundred stories about them.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Beat Steve Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 (edited) Care to name any? I've bought records in Paris before too (and a bit on eBay) and can say that they are not all alike. Some really do give good service and are helpful (to foreigners who speak their own language, anyway ). At any rate, the nationality probably hasn't that much to do with the way you're being treated on eBay, and on the other hand there ARE a few U.S. online sellers out there who seem to look down on those "Yurpeans". You get the good and bad guys either way ... Edited October 13, 2006 by Big Beat Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel A Posted October 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 A few observations/questions: How was the remainder of the LP aside from the first thirty seconds? Its clear to me that a combination of VG+ and "visually graded" has the strong potential for being in worse condition and as someone stated above, you should bid accordingly. Sorry for being unclear! To clarify: My question in the post above mentioning visual grading was hypothetical. In the case of this LP, the item description did not mention whether the grading was visual, but instead something to the effect that it wasn't too bad at all; "quelques craquements ponctuels sans consequences" (which would mean something like "occasional crackles without consequences"). I didn't find more skips, although I haven't listened to the whole LP. But there was more crackle than I would accept for 'VG+'. Very shiny and nice surface, but with a couple of really long, visible scratches. I'm glad to see a Frenchman brought up the possibility of a deaf psychotic French dealer, because honestly, my first reaction was that this was the stereotypical response of a haughty, superior French dude. He's going to tell you all the reason you're wrong, and then give you a refund "anyway". When he clicked "send", believe me, he was thinking "Stupid American." I'm not sure if a "Stupid Swede" is even worse... Anyway, I was just going to say that I've gotten several really nice LPs in great condition from a French eBayer, but then I realized he's an American expatriate... However, in general I have nothing but nice memories from France, which I used to visit every summer for many years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel1969 Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 I will not name any of them it would not be elegant especially on a public forum, but i assume i'm not satisfied by them, either onebay or off. Some 100 % authentic stories (choose your favourite) You have the seller that tells you "no i do not have nothing interesting at the moment", while you see another guy getting off the vaults with a bunch of mint Blue Notes and Riverside (authentic story, many fellows record collectors will tell you) Now on Ebay. You have the other who has plenty of Blue Notes on the wall of the shop but "they are not for sale, and in case they are, i promise to a sell them to a friend" (No kidding !!) Now he's on ebay, accept cash only. You have this Ebay seller who asks you 5 % more for paypal charges, and 5 % of the 5% more because you forgot the first time you paid it (yes yes yes) An ebayer, of course. You have the (1000 % pro) seller that do not remove the record from the sleeve - seams are splitted (it happens elsewhere) You have the seller whom you you give record for sale (consignment). The shop closes, the man and your record are somewhere in the galaxy (incidentally yor money, too). Now on ebay ! Go, man, Go !! You have the seller that refuses audition to a customer that was ready to buy 20 records ("i'll close the shop soon, no time now") (i SAW and HEARD it while browsing... just could not believe it) You have the one that asks a friend of mine "what is your job" ? and then comments the response : "well, you probably do not earn that much money" (means : i have a mint copy of True Blue, but not for you) 100 % authentic story !! You have the one that tells you "no i have nothing at the moment"... you tell him "I recently purcahsed a mint copy of Tony Fruscella on Atlantic, on Ebay.. Paid 500 or 700, can't remember"...then the seller says : well... wait a minute, i may have something of interest for you" (absolutely true) to be continued... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel A Posted October 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 An update: today someone left this seller (who previuosly had only 1 negative feedback, but 5000+ positive from the last year) negative feedback for seven items in a row! Shortly after, all the negative feedback was "mutually withdrawn". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownjazz Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 Sorry you got ripped off Daniel. I've dealt with a couple of dealers (mostly not on eBay) who have disappointed me. I always try to forgive a first mistake no matter how obvious. But when it happens the second time I know it's time to skip over that dealer unless they really have something at a price I'm willing to take a chance on. Classical vinyl dealers are a whole other story. They tend to use A/B/C grading, and almost everything is graded A or A-. Classical stuff seems to tend to be in better condition in general though, so it tends to work out OK despite the occasional problems. You know - a record graded A with seam splits, that sort of thing. Some of these dealers grade 3000 items a month so you know thay can't be spending a lot of time on each one. In the end though I have done pretty well by them. There are really only two dealers I know of that I groan when I see something I want, because I know it will be a coin toss at best that the condition is anything even remotely like the nominal grade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 A few observations/questions: How was the remainder of the LP aside from the first thirty seconds? Its clear to me that a combination of VG+ and "visually graded" has the strong potential for being in worse condition and as someone stated above, you should bid accordingly. Sorry for being unclear! To clarify: My question in the post above mentioning visual grading was hypothetical. In the case of this LP, the item description did not mention whether the grading was visual, but instead something to the effect that it wasn't too bad at all; "quelques craquements ponctuels sans consequences" (which would mean something like "occasional crackles without consequences"). I didn't find more skips, although I haven't listened to the whole LP. But there was more crackle than I would accept for 'VG+'. Very shiny and nice surface, but with a couple of really long, visible scratches. I'm glad to see a Frenchman brought up the possibility of a deaf psychotic French dealer, because honestly, my first reaction was that this was the stereotypical response of a haughty, superior French dude. He's going to tell you all the reason you're wrong, and then give you a refund "anyway". When he clicked "send", believe me, he was thinking "Stupid American." I'm not sure if a "Stupid Swede" is even worse... Anyway, I was just going to say that I've gotten several really nice LPs in great condition from a French eBayer, but then I realized he's an American expatriate... However, in general I have nothing but nice memories from France, which I used to visit every summer for many years. A thousand apologies from one Daniel to another - I could have sworn when I opened this topic that it was Dmitry who had started it. Well at least I recognize the letter "D". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 I think the term "skip" means different things to different people. Daniel, do you mean "repeating tics" or "stuck in the groove?" The first sounds reasonable for a Euro-graded ebay VG+. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel A Posted October 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 What happens in this case is that the stylus jumps further to another groove altogether four or five spins in a row. Since I got my money back I'm not feeling ripped-off. I just thought it incredible someone would defend the grading, even with recorded evidence. And Dan, I fully accept your apology. In fact, for a moment I was flattered anyone would take me for a native English speaker. But then it turned out you confused me with that Russian guy ... and BTW, don't ask him about my Russian, because it is bad beyond description... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 Wow, jumps eh? That's pretty wasted... The only French dealers I buy from are La Dame Blanche and Paris Jazz Corner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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