*** Frank Zappa ***

[Big Wheel]

Yeah, I've heard a track or two off Guitar before. Oy.

Saw recently a discussion of how Dweezil asked FZ which of his compositions he thought were his "signature" tunes. The three he picked were Zoot Allures, Watermelon in Easter Hay, and Black Napkins. Which to me is fairly revealing (especially the latter two) - all are sort of searching and a bit sad/wistful. At his core, under all the goofing, Zappa seems to have identified most with a deep, heartfelt loneliness.

Edited March 5, 2013 by Big Wheel

[Big Wheel]

Just finished up Make a Jazz Noise Here. Not counting the archival tapes and so forth like You Can't Do That On Stage Anymore 1-6, the only original records I have left are:

The Best Band You Never Heard in Your Life

The Yellow Shark

The last 30 or so tracks of Guitar

[mjzee]

I'll be curious to hear your impressions, especially about the overall arc of his career. I formed my opinions long ago, and it'll be interesting to hear from someone listening with fresh ears.

[StarThrower]

The parts of SUNPYG that work best are the more composed works, that function best as stand-alone tunes: five-five-FIVE, Treacherous Cretins, Canarsie, and Ship Ahoy (perhaps my favorite). The rest are the guitar solo portions of other performances or unstructured jams that seem aimless. If you're soldiering through SUNPYG, wait till you encounter "Guitar." I don't envy you there.

I've seen this "aimless" description applied to some of these solos by others, and I don't agree in the slightest. They are not unstructured jams. If you listen to the three title tracks, you can hear that they are highly melodic and imaginative variations performed in the tune Inca Roads. Pink Napkins is another brilliant performance, and obviously a different "Black Napkins" solo.

I don't know how much time you've spent with the music, but the more you listen, the more this will become apparent to your ears. I encourage Big Wheel not to brush off Studio Tan; Sleep Dirt; and Orchestral Favorites. These albums contain loads of great music.

Edited March 13, 2013 by starthrower

[StarThrower]

Yeah, I've heard a track or two off Guitar before. Oy.

Saw recently a discussion of how Dweezil asked FZ which of his compositions he thought were his "signature" tunes. The three he picked were Zoot Allures, Watermelon in Easter Hay, and Black Napkins. Which to me is fairly revealing (especially the latter two) - all are sort of searching and a bit sad/wistful. At his core, under all the goofing, Zappa seems to have identified most with a deep, heartfelt loneliness.

"Loneliness is the next best thing to solitude." -Frank Zappa

[Big Wheel]

The jams themselves on Shut Up are not unstructured, the problem is the lack of any real context which takes away any structure from the record as a whole. Like the Bird Benedetti box I guess I'd rather have them than have nothing at all, but simply hearing these clipped chunks of Inca Roads doesn't really do it for me. Was the rest of the tune really not interesting enough to be issued?

I'm done with the last 3 studio records, now working my way through You Can't Do That on Stage vol. 2. In a bit I'll post my impressions of the whole sweep.

[StarThrower]

The whole point of the Shut Up records was to feature FZ's guitar improvisations. And IMO, they stand up great on their own. You seem to be going through a bunch of Zappa recordings at a swift pace. Like I asked before, how much time have you spent listening to each piece of music?

As for Inca Roads, several different complete versions of the composition have been released. The guitar solo from Inca Roads on Vol. 2 is the one that was used in the studio version on the One Size Fits All album. It was edited for the album, but the full solo can be heard on the Helsinki concert.

To my ears, the Shut Up records were very carefully sequenced and edited, and they don't sound unstructured at all. Of course, it helps if you are already familiar with FZ's music when you come around to this set. And in the end, these records aren't going to have a very broad appeal. As FZ used to say, they are for guitar fetishists. But if you can forget about the guitar and focus on the musical content, there's plenty of inventive stuff here to enjoy.

[GregK]

The whole point of the Shut Up records was to feature FZ's guitar improvisations. And IMO, they stand up great on their own. You seem to be going through a bunch of Zappa recordings at a swift pace. Like I asked before, how much time have you spent listening to each piece of music?

As for Inca Roads, several different complete versions of the composition have been released. The guitar solo from Inca Roads on Vol. 2 is the one that was used in the studio version on the One Size Fits All album. It was edited for the album, but the full solo can be heard on the Helsinki concert.

To my ears, the Shut Up records were very carefully sequenced and edited, and they don't sound unstructured at all. Of course, it helps if you are already familiar with FZ's music when you come around to this set. And in the end, these records aren't going to have a very broad appeal. As FZ used to say, they are for guitar fetishists. But if you can forget about the guitar and focus on the musical content, there's plenty of inventive stuff here to enjoy.

You're exactly right. Shut Up... easily stands alone as a great record on its own, never mind some of the recycled material. Taken out of their original context, tunes like Inca Roads spun off a different tune altogether. And the guitar playing is obviously the highlight anyway. Project/Object!

[Big Wheel]

Of course, it helps if you are already familiar with FZ's music when you come around to this set. And in the end, these records aren't going to have a very broad appeal.

Who are you trying to convince that this is the optimal way of presenting this music: me, or yourself?

FYI, I've had 2/3 of the records up to Zappa in New York for several years. It's everything after that point that I am only familiar with in bits and pieces.

[StarThrower]

I don't need any convincing. I've been listening to Shut Up for almost 30 years. As Zappa fans know, the solo sections of the tunes are compositions within themselves. This is why these solos are so remarkable. It's spontaneous composition that is melodic, inventive, and has continuity.

[Big Wheel]

That's nice. After all, it's not like Zappa had this keyboard player in the band who was an equally capable improviser or anything. Good thing he made sure to excise that hack's shitty solos so those who are more metal Zappa than me don't have to put up with them!

[StarThrower]

You don't know what you're talking about. Zappa had some of the finest keyboard players in modern music.

George Duke, Tommy Mars, Don Preston, Peter Wolf, Allan Zavod, etc...

[Big Wheel]

[7/4]

That's nice. After all, it's not like Zappa had this keyboard player in the band who was an equally capable improviser or anything. Good thing he made sure to excise that hack's shitty solos so those who are more metal Zappa than me don't have to put up with them!

It's OK not like every Zappa album, they're not all my favorite album.

Because I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and, doggonit, people like me!

[sgcim]

You don't know what you're talking about. Zappa had some of the finest keyboard players in modern music.

George Duke, Tommy Mars, Don Preston, Peter Wolf, Allan Zavod, etc...

Another interesting keyboard player Zappa had in the MOI for a short time was Bob Harris in 1971. In Zappa circles he is called Bob Harris(1), because Zappa had another Bob Harris in the 1980s (Bob Harris(2)).

Bob Harris(1) was on the Fillmore LP (the "Vaudeville" Band), and has a good Wurlitzer solo on "Billy The Mountain" from Playground Psychotics.

I got interested in BH(1), because he did most of the arr. for Judee Sill's sublime first LP. They were married for a few years, and lived in a 1950s Oldsmobile for a while(!)

They were both life-long junkies, so that didn't help their careers, but I acquired a tape of him at a session in N.Hollywood, and he was a straight-ahead bopper, highly influenced by the Detroit jazz scene. He toured with Ray Charles for a few years, arranged for The Friends of Distinction and played with Gabor Szabo.

[Scott Dolan]

As a fellow Zappa fan I have to say that if you like every single thing Zappa did, there may be something terribly wrong with you.

He made a ton of great music, but he also made quite a bit of not-so-great-to-bad music.

Shut Up is a masterpiece, IMO. Yet Guitar is nearly a snoozefest....

[7/4]

Ditto on Guitar, but I never really put the time into it.

Trance/Fusion is another guitar album.

Edited March 16, 2013 by 7/4

[Scott Dolan]

Haven't heard that one yet. From what I've heard from others it's pretty decent. Is that your impression?

Has a lot of stuff from the abbreviated/meltdown '88 tour which IMO he was playing some of the best solos he ever played. Fire And Chains, the solos from Hot Plate Heaven and Cruisin' For Burgers...

I think the biggest downfall of Guitar is the period the majority of the songs came from. The early 80's were a serious mixed bag for him as both a composer and musician.

Edited March 15, 2013 by Scott Dolan

[7/4]

Ditto on Guitar, but I never really put the time into it.

Trance/Fusion is another guitar album.

Haven't heard that one yet. From what I've heard from others it's pretty decent. Is that your impression?

Has a lot of stuff from the abbreviated/meltdown '88 tour which IMO he was playing some of the best solos he ever played. Fire And Chains, the solos from Hot Plate Heaven and Cruisin' For Burgers...

I think the biggest downfall of Guitar is the period the majority of the songs came from. The early 80's were a serious mixed bag for him as both a composer and musician.

Gotta dig it out and listen to it again. In fact...time to listen to all three of these again.

I've had Shut Up.. since the beginning as an import and I remember it had some golden moments.

[StarThrower]

The Guitar CD probably has too much material. There is some great stuff, and some OK solos. Trance Fusion is pretty weak to my ears. Most of the solos are from the '88 tour, and FZ's guitar playing was not on the same level as earlier days.

FZ was writing and playing some amazing stuff in the early 80s. Compositions including Drowning Witch, Moggio, Sinister Footwear, the orchestral scores for London Symphony.

[Quincy]

FZ was writing and playing some amazing stuff in the early 80s. Compositions including Drowning Witch, Moggio, Sinister Footwear...

Indeed! I was so fortunate to see him in Nov. '81 where he played all 3. It was mind-frying. He had just cut back on performing most of You Are What You Is from a month earlier and so I think the more open setlist invigorated his playing.

[Scott Dolan]

My point being that it simply was his weakest era. Tinseltown Rebellion isn't very good, The Man From Utopia, Baby Snakes, Perfect Stranger, Jazz From Hell, are really weak albums. Ship Arriving Too Late To Save a Drowning Witch and You Are What You Is are really strong, But Them Or Us is spotty. Meets The Mothers of Prevention has the outstanding What's New In Baltimore, and the very good I Don't Even Care, but aside from that is just another synclavier throwaway album...

When compared with what he was writing and playing from the late 60's up to that point it's pretty difficult to not note the weakness.

And I've never heard anyone that felt his playing on the '88 tour was anything less than brilliant. To each there own, of course.

Edited March 17, 2013 by Scott Dolan

[7/4]

Obviously not a fan of Zappa's synclavier music. I think it's brilliant.

[Scott Dolan]

It's OK, but I have to really want to listen to it. I much prefer hearing him play guitar to programming a machine.

I even prefer the version of G-spot Tornado that was performed by Ensemble Modern.

[Д.Д.]

Well, I also believe that FZ's solos from the '88 tour are among his least interesting. I mean, they are cute, but less diverse and adventurous, and more likely to rely on the same licks and hooks than his older ones. Listen to SUNPYG "Inca Roads" solos, any of the four, and to the "Inca Roads" solo from "The Best Band..." back-to-back for comparison. The later version is sedate and boring, IMO.

Actually, Zappa himself alluded in the Real Frank Zappa Book that his guitar playing in '88 was not his best. I find that his solos became better by the end of the tour (the one from "Outside Now" from his last '88 concert in Genoa, heard on "Broadway the Hard Way" is fantastic... "After Dinner Smoker" off "Trance-Fusion" from the same concert is also excellent), it's a shame the tour did not continue.

"Guitar" album has a much better flow in the LP configuration, which is 13 tracks shorter. The sequencing is excellent, making the overall listening experience much more pleasurable. While I like SUNPYG more as an album, "Guitar" has some of my favorite FZ solos. And I just love his '84 guitar sound (even if I hate the overall sound of the '84 band.. but then again, Scott Thunes is excellent...).

As for the '80s FZ, there is a lot of dross there, for sure. I just hate YAWYI, and most of "Them or US". And don't even mention "Thing-Fish". However, I consider "Jazz from Hell" to be among FZ's very best. To each his own, indeed.