romualdo Posted June 27, 2012 Report Share Posted June 27, 2012 been a fan of his since the early 70's but the one thing that bugged me about him was his homophobia (went beyond satire) Chuck's experience with him is a shocker!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7/4 Posted June 27, 2012 Report Share Posted June 27, 2012 Hmmm.... In late 1967 or early 1968 when the Mothers were first breaking on the scene, someone in the Zappa management team, working for Tom Wilson suggested I take Lester Bowie and Roscoe Mitchell to meet Frank when they came to town for a gig. It took a bit of convincing to get them to drive to the North side for this meeting. Frank came out from the dressing room and dismissed me as a white guy exploiting black artists and dismissed Lester and Roscoe because they were my n...ers. I have never been able to take him seriously or listen to his music. He was an ASSHOLE of the first order. No shit. That's fucked up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AfricaBrass Posted June 27, 2012 Report Share Posted June 27, 2012 (edited) For someone new to Zappa, which of the first 12 being released are "must haves"? For me, Hot Rats, Uncle Meat, Burnt Weeny Sandwich, Weasels, Absolutely Free (for nostalgia's sake; I was 12 when I first bought it), and Fillmore East (absolutely brilliant satire). If you want to narrow it down to one or two, Hot Rats and Uncle Meat. Thanks. What about the other live one -- band from LA or somesuch? Just Another Band From L.A....Billy The Mountain (Side One) is EPIC. I'm sure Side Two was good, but frankly, I can no longer remember it. I LOVE Billy the Mountain!! Side two is good too. Other than Just Another Band From L.A., my favorites are Absolutely Free, Freak Out and Hot Rats. Hmmm.... In late 1967 or early 1968 when the Mothers were first breaking on the scene, someone in the Zappa management team, working for Tom Wilson suggested I take Lester Bowie and Roscoe Mitchell to meet Frank when they came to town for a gig. It took a bit of convincing to get them to drive to the North side for this meeting. Frank came out from the dressing room and dismissed me as a white guy exploiting black artists and dismissed Lester and Roscoe because they were my n...ers. I have never been able to take him seriously or listen to his music. He was an ASSHOLE of the first order. No shit. That's fucked up. Wow! That's awful. Seriously awful. Actually, my parents went to high school in the same town as Zappa. Even though it was in California, there's was some serious racism. It wasn't overt, but it was in the attitudes. I have been sickened by some of the things my aunt has said about Obama, and this was before he was even president. I don't even think that she knows she is a racist. I'm not making any excuses for them, but only illustrating how it really is out there. It's one of the reasons I keep to myself... Edited June 27, 2012 by AfricaBrass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjzee Posted June 27, 2012 Report Share Posted June 27, 2012 Zappa wasn't a racist - just look at his bands (and that was long before it was hip to have integrated rock bands). That doesn't mean he wasn't a major asshole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertoart Posted June 27, 2012 Report Share Posted June 27, 2012 Zappa wasn't a racist - just look at his bands (and that was long before it was hip to have integrated rock bands). That doesn't mean he wasn't a major asshole. No. He may not have been a racist, I don't know. But the story Chuck Nessa relates jibes to the sanctimonious and mean spirited vibe I have always got a whiff of from his 'lyrical satire'. I appreciate in many ways, musically and as a social observer/critic, he was an intelligent thinker, but it always came across to me as a belligerent intelligence. If he never challenged himself about his homophobia, he probably wasn't that smart anyway. And there are also disturbing allegations relating to ongoing employment of molesters in his band, despite some awareness of their behaviour. Shades of the other thread perhaps. Sorry Zappa fans. I still love his balls out Rock guitar playing though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFrank Posted June 27, 2012 Report Share Posted June 27, 2012 I have no way of knowing, but I'm guessing that things he said in 67-68 are not things he would have said 10-20 years later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Д.Д. Posted June 27, 2012 Report Share Posted June 27, 2012 The first batch of reissues is available for preorder on amazon. I will order Hot Rats and Uncle Meat - probably two albums most butchered by the old remastering. Where???.....I don't see any Uncle Meat or any of the titles available for pre order on Amazon. Uncle Meat: http://www.amazon.com/Uncle-Meat-Frank-Zappa/dp/B008BDZP08/ Hot Rats: http://www.amazon.com/Hot-Rats-Frank-Zappa/dp/B008BDZP3K/ Hmmm.... In late 1967 or early 1968 when the Mothers were first breaking on the scene, someone in the Zappa management team, working for Tom Wilson suggested I take Lester Bowie and Roscoe Mitchell to meet Frank when they came to town for a gig. It took a bit of convincing to get them to drive to the North side for this meeting. Frank came out from the dressing room and dismissed me as a white guy exploiting black artists and dismissed Lester and Roscoe because they were my n...ers. I have never been able to take him seriously or listen to his music. He was an ASSHOLE of the first order. Chuck, could you please elaborate a bit on the intended purpose of the meeting? Was there any particular agenda? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quincy Posted June 27, 2012 Report Share Posted June 27, 2012 For someone new to Zappa, which of the first 12 being released are "must haves"? My favorite is Burnt Weeny Sandwich which for some reason isn't listed in the first dozen. So for the new reissues I agree that Hot Rats is your best bet, and The Grand Wazoo and Waka/Jawaka would be other good bets in terms of music without much in the way satire which may or may not be your thing. (I'm also basing this on knowing that like me you're a fan of The Great Deceiver. It's different music of course but these albums tend to match up well with the certain somethings that cause ardent fanship.) I read a blurb on one of the other forums from a former Zappa insider (forgot the specifics) where supposedly Waka/Jawaka now sounds better than any other CD version. Uncle Meat rates highly too but I'm waiting to see if the movie soundtrack dialogue "penalty tracks" have been removed. Albums with a more lyrical emphasis provide enjoyment too (both early, later and even much later), but it becomes very hard to recommend them as they're dependent upon one's sense of humor and whether the targets of the time translate well today. Even the ones I like I tend to only like for about a dozen nonconsecutive days a year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JETman Posted June 27, 2012 Report Share Posted June 27, 2012 For someone new to Zappa, which of the first 12 being released are "must haves"? My favorite is Burnt Weeny Sandwich which for some reason isn't listed in the first dozen. So for the new reissues I agree that Hot Rats is your best bet, and The Grand Wazoo and Waka/Jawaka would be other good bets in terms of music without much in the way satire which may or may not be your thing. (I'm also basing this on knowing that like me you're a fan of The Great Deceiver. It's different music of course but these albums tend to match up well with the certain somethings that cause ardent fanship.) I read a blurb on one of the other forums from a former Zappa insider (forgot the specifics) where supposedly Waka/Jawaka now sounds better than any other CD version. Uncle Meat rates highly too but I'm waiting to see if the movie soundtrack dialogue "penalty tracks" have been removed. Albums with a more lyrical emphasis provide enjoyment too (both early, later and even much later), but it becomes very hard to recommend them as they're dependent upon one's sense of humor and whether the targets of the time translate well today. Even the ones I like I tend to only like for about a dozen nonconsecutive days a year. Thanks for this. To put it simply, I am a fan of music played "skillfully". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted June 27, 2012 Report Share Posted June 27, 2012 (edited) that's a bad story, Chuck. I still think Zappa was a great composer. and actually, California was always extremely racist; read about Howard McGhee's experiences with his white wife. Also, don't forget what they did to the Japanese. Edited June 27, 2012 by AllenLowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted June 27, 2012 Report Share Posted June 27, 2012 Chuck, could you please elaborate a bit on the intended purpose of the meeting? Was there any particular agenda? I had been contacted by Elizabeth van der Mei. Elizabeth was an early person promoting the "new thing" in NY. She wrote reports for some magazines and worked at ESP for a while. At some point she moved to California to work with Tom Wilson (Transition Records, electric Dylan, etc) who was now producing/managing Zappa and the Mothers. She thought the meeting of the AACM and Zappa might produce some positive results. I wasn't sure but she pushed me forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Train Posted June 27, 2012 Report Share Posted June 27, 2012 (edited) Mr. Nessa: Sorry to read that....while I admit to liking a good deal of his work....the man was pretty much an asshole in general back then from what I understand. The ratio of great musicians/composers who were/are assholes to non-assholes unfortunately leans heavily to the first. I just find it strange he wouldn't have known about Mr. Bowie & Mitchell or least listened to anything by the AACM before you showed up. He knew his Jazz. You would think whomever set it up would have at least gave him something to listen too. Edited June 27, 2012 by Blue Train Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted June 27, 2012 Report Share Posted June 27, 2012 FWIW, this took place at Aaron Russo's Electric Theater (if that was the name at the time - it kept changing). IIRC the Mothers were alternating sets with Canned Heat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Train Posted June 27, 2012 Report Share Posted June 27, 2012 (edited) Mr. Nessa: I could be wrong (and I don't have the book anywhere near where I am right now.)....but I swear I read in George Lewis' book....that he mentioned the AACM shared a bill with Zappa in Europe and had a great time. Like I said, I could be wrong. I haven't read it since it came out. Edited June 27, 2012 by Blue Train Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted June 27, 2012 Report Share Posted June 27, 2012 Hope it was a lucrative gig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romualdo Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 Mr. Nessa: I could be wrong (and I don't have the book anywhere near where I am right now.)....but I swear I read in George Lewis' book....that he mentioned the AACM shared a bill with Zappa in Europe and had a great time. Like I said, I could be wrong. I haven't read it since it came out. was given a copy of this book recently (A Power Stronger Than Itself) - havn't had a chance to read it yet but there is no mention of Zappa or Mothers in the Index (doesn't mean it's not in the text though) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Д.Д. Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 Mr. Nessa: I could be wrong (and I don't have the book anywhere near where I am right now.)....but I swear I read in George Lewis' book....that he mentioned the AACM shared a bill with Zappa in Europe and had a great time. Like I said, I could be wrong. I haven't read it since it came out. Could have been the Actuel Festival in October 1969 in Amougies: http://wiki.killuglyradio.com/wiki/Actuel_Festival Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Train Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 Found it. No way of knowing what Zappa actually thought of them, or if he was even around at the time from this. http://books.google.com/books?id=fUbCMeCrxa0C&pg=PA227&lpg=PA227&dq=%22Frank+Zappa%22+%22AACM%22&source=bl&ots=GhL8Y7Vyo9&sig=ehddSiVKMU6XGNnlz5TeTiV4F28&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KozrT6GkBIiYrAHJvLTVBQ&ved=0CIUEEOgBMAA#v=onepage&q=%22Frank%20Zappa%22%20%22AACM%22&f=false Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFrank Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 that's a bad story, Chuck. I still think Zappa was a great composer. and actually, California was always extremely racist; read about Howard McGhee's experiences with his white wife. Also, don't forget what they did to the Japanese. Well, that's a REALLY "California-ist" thing to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romualdo Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 Found it. No way of knowing what Zappa actually thought of them, or if he was even around at the time from this. http://books.google.com/books?id=fUbCMeCrxa0C&pg=PA227&lpg=PA227&dq=%22Frank+Zappa%22+%22AACM%22&source=bl&ots=GhL8Y7Vyo9&sig=ehddSiVKMU6XGNnlz5TeTiV4F28&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KozrT6GkBIiYrAHJvLTVBQ&ved=0CIUEEOgBMAA#v=onepage&q=%22Frank%20Zappa%22%20%22AACM%22&f=false Thanks - now noted in the book's index! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertoart Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 (edited) Mr. Nessa: Sorry to read that....while I admit to liking a good deal of his work....the man was pretty much an asshole in general back then from what I understand. The ratio of great musicians/composers who were/are assholes to non-assholes unfortunately leans heavily to the first. I just find it strange he wouldn't have known about Mr. Bowie & Mitchell or least listened to anything by the AACM before you showed up. He knew his Jazz. You would think whomever set it up would have at least gave him something to listen too. Zappa was into Johnny Guitar Watson and the music concrete thing as far as I know. I doubt he would have had much awareness at all of radical Black Music as early as then. If ever. And he continued to remain on the 'fusion' side of things when it came to all things improvised. Ian Underwood's quirky avant garde malapropisms not withstanding. Sounds like the meeting may have been a desire from the publicist to bring her two worlds together and score some brownie points. Edited June 28, 2012 by freelancer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Д.Д. Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 For someone new to Zappa, which of the first 12 being released are "must haves"? My favorite is Burnt Weeny Sandwich which for some reason isn't listed in the first dozen. it's there: http://www.amazon.com/Burnt-Weeny-Sandwich-Frank-Zappa/dp/B008BDZOZ4/ref=pd_sim_m_3 , one of my favorite FZ albums too. However, the '95 edition sounds just fine to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quincy Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 For someone new to Zappa, which of the first 12 being released are "must haves"? My favorite is Burnt Weeny Sandwich which for some reason isn't listed in the first dozen. it's there: http://www.amazon.com/Burnt-Weeny-Sandwich-Frank-Zappa/dp/B008BDZOZ4/ref=pd_sim_m_3 , one of my favorite FZ albums too. However, the '95 edition sounds just fine to me. Ah thanks, I was basing my reply on a thread a few weeks ago on a another board about the release list. That's good to see! I agree the '95 sounds fine so I don't see getting it again. Well, unless there are reports that it sounds like fairy dust sprinkled about the ears or some fabulous unimaginable glorious improvement as I do so love the album. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregK Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 Hmmm.... In late 1967 or early 1968 when the Mothers were first breaking on the scene, someone in the Zappa management team, working for Tom Wilson suggested I take Lester Bowie and Roscoe Mitchell to meet Frank when they came to town for a gig. It took a bit of convincing to get them to drive to the North side for this meeting. Frank came out from the dressing room and dismissed me as a white guy exploiting black artists and dismissed Lester and Roscoe because they were my n...ers. I have never been able to take him seriously or listen to his music. He was an ASSHOLE of the first order. What were Lester's and Roscoe's reactions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 Hmmm.... In late 1967 or early 1968 when the Mothers were first breaking on the scene, someone in the Zappa management team, working for Tom Wilson suggested I take Lester Bowie and Roscoe Mitchell to meet Frank when they came to town for a gig. It took a bit of convincing to get them to drive to the North side for this meeting. Frank came out from the dressing room and dismissed me as a white guy exploiting black artists and dismissed Lester and Roscoe because they were my n...ers. I have never been able to take him seriously or listen to his music. He was an ASSHOLE of the first order. What were Lester's and Roscoe's reactions? We all looked at each other and went away. Not an unusual reaction in the '60s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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