*** Frank Zappa ***

[Chuck Nessa]

I was just pointing out this was his commercial starting point - nothing else intended.

[7/4]

ok.

[Teasing the Korean]

Mono rules.

[Chuck Nessa]

Time to state the mono rules -

[MomsMobley]

CT-- I'm surprised! For 'rock,' find a copy of the posthumous "Imaginary Diseases"; if you ever liked anything about "blues," "rock" and "loud guitar"... it's THERE.

But I am also convinced Zappa is ** always ** best considered a composer, which, to me, most of the "free" blowhards should not be, or if they are, it's like fuck...

Alan Silva, for example, is a shitty composer.

Also, Blow Me Gladys Hampton

Also, read Nicholas Slonimsky's accounts of FZ in both the "Baker's Dictionary of Musicians" and NS's autobiography, "Perfect Pitch."

I used to get off the bus when George Duke did but, unless you can't get more complex than the Ramones or Motorhead in 1977...

this is pretty great-- and ridiculous-- but still great--

My link

We can discuss the non-rock composition another time.

Also, CHEWY, I have "Freak Out" and "Absolutely Free" in MONO.

[JSngry]

Freak Out is best understood as a postlude to

http://globalia.net/.../Burt_Ward.html

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=03F4nmPow9M

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=AjoLQbJCPTI

http://globalia.net/.../Burt_Ward.html

I think that "How Could I be Such A Fool" is a perfectly beautiful pop song, and that "Help I'm A Rock" is just....fine. As is.

I pretty much dig Zappa from when he was just cynical. It's when he got bitter that he lost me.

[felser]

I think that "How Could I be Such A Fool" is a perfectly beautiful pop song, and that "Help I'm A Rock" is just....fine. As is.

I pretty much dig Zappa from when he was just cynical. It's when he got bitter that he lost me.

I liked Zappa with the original Mothers group, when he was actually trying to say something. "Trouble Every Day' sums up the received trauma of growing up in the American Suburbs in the 60's pretty well (Blow your harmonica, son!). He lost me with the Flo and Eddie group, which was crude for crudity's sake. I enjoyed the Hot Rats/Waka Jawaka/Grand Wazoo period instrumental stuff also, as well as the original albums up through Chunga's Revenge quite a bit. Incredibly imaginative. I also liked 'Apostrophe', 'One Size Fits All' and 'Bongo Fury' on a much more minor level. The place to start to try to understand when, why, and how Zappa "mattered" is We're Only In It For The Money, his send-up/critique of the 60's counterculture (and more). Then go one album back to Absolutely Free, which takes on their parents. Then go back one more to Freak Out and forward to Uncle Meat for the amazing side-long "King Kong". Then Hot Rats/Waka Jawaka/Grand Wazoo for the instrumental stuff. And if you like Uncle Meat, pick up Burnt Weeny Sandwich, Weasils Ripped My Flesh, and Chunga's Revenge for more of the same with somewhat diminishing returns each step.

[Hot Ptah]

I think that "How Could I be Such A Fool" is a perfectly beautiful pop song, and that "Help I'm A Rock" is just....fine. As is.

I pretty much dig Zappa from when he was just cynical. It's when he got bitter that he lost me.

I liked Zappa with the original Mothers group, when he was actually trying to say something. "Trouble Every Day' sums up the received trauma of growing up in the American Suburbs in the 60's pretty well (Blow your harmonica, son!). He lost me with the Flo and Eddie group, which was crude for crudity's sake. I enjoyed the Hot Rats/Waka Jawaka/Grand Wazoo period instrumental stuff also, as well as the original albums up through Chunga's Revenge quite a bit. Incredibly imaginative. I also liked 'Apostrophe', 'One Size Fits All' and 'Bongo Fury' on a much more minor level. The place to start to try to understand when, why, and how Zappa "mattered" is We're Only In It For The Money, his send-up/critique of the 60's counterculture (and more). Then go one album back to Absolutely Free, which takes on their parents. Then go back one more to Freak Out and forward to Uncle Meat for the amazing side-long "King Kong". Then Hot Rats/Waka Jawaka/Grand Wazoo for the instrumental stuff. And if you like Uncle Meat, pick up Burnt Weeny Sandwich, Weasils Ripped My Flesh, and Chunga's Revenge for more of the same with somewhat diminishing returns each step.

"Make A Jazz Noise Here", from the big band 1988 tour, should not be overlooked for its improvisations and jazz content.

I find each album after 1976 to have some pleasures, often some great things, and then to also have what I consider filler. But his post-1976 output should not be dismissed out of hand, in my opinion.

[clifford_thornton]

CT-- I'm surprised! For 'rock,' find a copy of the posthumous "Imaginary Diseases"; if you ever liked anything about "blues," "rock" and "loud guitar"... it's THERE.

But I am also convinced Zappa is ** always ** best considered a composer, which, to me, most of the "free" blowhards should not be, or if they are, it's like fuck...

Alan Silva, for example, is a shitty composer.

Also, Blow Me Gladys Hampton

Also, read Nicholas Slonimsky's accounts of FZ in both the "Baker's Dictionary of Musicians" and NS's autobiography, "Perfect Pitch."

I used to get off the bus when George Duke did but, unless you can't get more complex than the Ramones or Motorhead in 1977...

this is pretty great-- and ridiculous-- but still great--

My link

We can discuss the non-rock composition another time.

Also, CHEWY, I have "Freak Out" and "Absolutely Free" in MONO.

From the Zappa I've listened to - which isn't a lot, but some - I get the impression that he was trying too hard to be "weird," "difficult," or "quirky." It's the difference between your average CRI LP (not counting the Feldman, Partch, etc. titles) and, say, Xenakis. Xenakis didn't have to try!

Of course, I can't fade FZ completely because he was good for foisting more Beefheart on the world, but... as a composer, he's totally uninteresting to me. Alan Silva is sometimes quite interesting (not always). I'm not comparing the two, really, but you get my drift. I was merely stating that I was curious to hear Zappa the guitarist (who's decent) in the historical context of the Actuel festival.

Edited August 12, 2010 by clifford_thornton

[Hot Ptah]

CT-- I'm surprised! For 'rock,' find a copy of the posthumous "Imaginary Diseases"; if you ever liked anything about "blues," "rock" and "loud guitar"... it's THERE.

But I am also convinced Zappa is ** always ** best considered a composer, which, to me, most of the "free" blowhards should not be, or if they are, it's like fuck...

Alan Silva, for example, is a shitty composer.

Also, Blow Me Gladys Hampton

Also, read Nicholas Slonimsky's accounts of FZ in both the "Baker's Dictionary of Musicians" and NS's autobiography, "Perfect Pitch."

I used to get off the bus when George Duke did but, unless you can't get more complex than the Ramones or Motorhead in 1977...

this is pretty great-- and ridiculous-- but still great--

My link

We can discuss the non-rock composition another time.

Also, CHEWY, I have "Freak Out" and "Absolutely Free" in MONO.

From the Zappa I've listened to - which isn't a lot, but some - I get the impression that he was trying too hard to be "weird," "difficult," or "quirky." It's the difference between your average CRI LP (not counting the Feldman, Partch, etc. titles) and, say, Xenakis. Xenakis didn't have to try!

Of course, I can't fade FZ completely because he was good for foisting more Beefheart on the world, but... as a composer, he's totally uninteresting to me. Alan Silva is sometimes quite interesting (not always). I'm not comparing the two, really, but you get my drift. I was merely stating that I was curious to hear Zappa the guitarist (who's decent) in the historical context of the Actuel festival.

You may not have heard enough of his output, based on your comments.

[MomsMobley]

not saying you're in this category but there's a school of Beefheart fans that proffer that theory-- Don was the 'natural' weirdo genius, while Frank, while he tried...

Nothing could be further from the truth: they are both VERY weird dudes-- yet there are interviews where Don mentions Harry Partch (key influence on both, of course), so it's not like Beefheart was really some "pure" naif visionary.

check out the "Freak Out" list for one broad view of where Zappa was coming from and why-- OF COURSE-- because he was extremely focused, driven artist that would FRAGMENT into his pursuit of x # styles, sometimes discretely, usually collaged. Same dude (+ manager Herb Cohen) is putting out Lord Buckley AND Tim Buckley's best albums + for all his rigid discipline, Zappa also loved improvisatory, audience participation comedy... Sometimes it works, sometimes it's tedious and, oh yeah, Zappa also put out those Lenny Bruce albums that are often the same way.

I'll defend Flo & Eddie period too as expressionist extension of FZ liking to combine doo-wop & other group harmony with x # of other styles. I forget what the best version of "Billy The Mountain" is but... there is one.

Also, for ultra-sick heavy blues psyche jamming, listen to "Orange County Lumber Truck" from the "Ahead Of Their Time"-- I'm naming only official albums-- and note that East Texas native and all around art/music/lit dude who knows, Gary Panter, did THREE album covers for Zappa, and has noted how extremely mind-blowing "Uncle Meat" was for him because, disparate as it is, it is also the world.

Finally, for now, "Joe's Garage" is almost FZ's "Smile," except he didn't go (love to say) doo-doo in the sandbox and he FINISHED it; lyrics ain't quite the level of Van Dyke Parks but few things are.

Finally, Part II: "200 Motels" is the best, or second best, rock movie after, depending on if you put Raymond Pettibon "Sir Drone" at #1 or not.

[clifford_thornton]

Ptah is probably right but if one is immediately turned off / severely underwhelmed, it's hard to get the gumption to try and try again. But maybe I'll give it another shot.

And I know Beefheart was far from a "naif," albeit definitely, genuinely odd.

[7/4]

not saying you're in this category but there's a school of Beefheart fans that proffer that theory-- Don was the 'natural' weirdo genius, while Frank, while he tried...

Nothing could be further from the truth: they are both VERY weird dudes-- yet there are interviews where Don mentions Harry Partch (key influence on both, of course), so it's not like Beefheart was really some "pure" naif visionary.

I'm with the Beefheart school, but it's obvious they both have that crazy genius thing going on. I hear the Partch in the Beef, although I've never seen an interview where Don mentions him. Seems natural..sounds like desert music.

The Flo & Eddie band never did much for me, but 200 Motels is a riot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hd1FN_pbDsA

Edited August 12, 2010 by 7/4

[MomsMobley]

Don on FZ & Partch--

http://www.beefheart.com/datharp/cook.htm

also Art Tripp = ED MARIMBA = total Harry Partch homage

what's wild is here's HP in San Diego '68--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOHBqFevy0k

Then a bit less than 20 years later, SD-native-- and former FZ tour-mate-- Tom Waits makes HIS Harry/Beefheart move with "Rain Dogs."

re: Frank's weirdness, the thing to remember is it ** was ** mediated by his extensive self-education--

Think of sitting down with those Walter Piston books, Nicholas Slominsky etc

And his engineering, and his band-leading, etc. FZ ** had to be ** somewhat more grounded, and mostly for the good-- which is why we have "Trout Mask Replica" and don't-- alas-- have the real "Bat Chain Puller."

Why the FZ Trust sits on this, still, is one of the abiding mysteries (of many when it comes to Gail.)

I gotta say, contrary to my expectations, the Zappa Plays Zappa band is pretty great-- highly recommended for those so inclined.

[JSngry]

The Flo & Eddie shit is great comedy-rock. Unlike Weird Al (who is pleasant - and meaningless - enough), it's real comedy & real rock.

IMO, of course!

[MomsMobley]

I should have said Tom Waits "Swordfishtrombones," of course, as TW's first mature Cali modernist weirdo move.

People beef at Zappa's 'crudeness' of satire etc later and maybe it is or maybe they don't get it BUT...

At the same time VERY few of his self-styled critics recognize or comment on FZ's consistent recognition of both high and erstwhile "low" cultures, and tho' he could be bitchy towards "rock"-- with good reason, of course-- you don't befriend and extol Johnny "Guitar" Watson if you're just concerned with appealing to teenager stoners etc. Nor, earlier, enlist Don "Sugarcane" Harris, or keep those doo-wop, R&B harmonies as part of your compositional palette l-o-n-g (in pop terms) after they were gauche.

THEN-- to have it together enough to eviscerate the Reagan-era, fucking Gore-approved PMRC idiocy AND still put on great live shows ('88 band, as noted above; some of the later studio work lacks the usual focus), compositions (the later synclavier work on "Civilization Phase III" is AMAZING).

It might be useful for jazz people to think of Zappa as something like a Mingus figure, tho' one with a lot more discipline and fewer (understandable) race burdens than later Chas. revealed.

AND FUNKIER THAN MILES TOO--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoJLMUBSMkc

note Jim Gordon on drums too, before the voices got too loud.

[7/4]

But I am also convinced Zappa is ** always ** best considered a composer,

Good idea.

Also, read Nicholas Slonimsky's accounts of FZ in both the "Baker's Dictionary of Musicians" and NS's autobiography, "Perfect Pitch."

I should!

I pretty much dig Zappa from when he was just cynical. It's when he got bitter that he lost me.

Yes...as far as lyrics go.

From the Zappa I've listened to - which isn't a lot, but some - I get the impression that he was trying too hard to be "weird," "difficult," or "quirky." It's the difference between your average CRI LP (not counting the Feldman, Partch, etc. titles) and, say, Xenakis. Xenakis didn't have to try!

I think Zappa's "classical" took a long time to become unique...he lifted too much in the early years (up through 200 Motels, at least).

[AllenLowe]

1) there's nothing to "get." Listen to the Yellow Shark to see how Zappa's path, as a non-academic modern composer, was almost the ONLY path with which to avoid the kind of studied modern-ness that has so severely harmed Amercan music (and which I hear in David Baker's work, to cite one old academic; also which I hear creeping into a fair amount of good non-academic musicians' work like that of Rosenwinkle and some others) -

2) in person the band was a fantastic amalgam of chaos and control - a perfect Zappa creation. Hard to replicate on recordings (best concert: 6/14/68, McMillan Hall, Columbia U).

3) repeating number one - Zappa's music has an edge and life that separates it from the "serious" world. And much as he complained, it owed a lot to the vernacular, rock and roll world for this,

4) Buy the Mystery Disc. A Perfect intro to FZ

5) as as a guitarist, I think FZ was over-rated; listen closely and you'll hear that he's a pattern player, like a lot of guitarists

6) to me (and I know this is a minority opinion here) Beefheart is a big nothing, a one-trick pony who made his point and than made it over and over again. Still, he gave up some good ideas. Just did not turn them into silk.

[mjzee]

I'll stick to what I wrote in the other thread: Zappa's inspired creativity peaked in the '68 - '71 timeframe. After the accident, there was the Wazoo tour (which I caught at the Felt Forum in '72), but then something in him seemed to have changed. Whatever the source of creativity is, it slowed down to a trickle in him. Overnite Sensation, Apostrophe are perfect examples of this. Even when he had a smokin' band (the Brock/Duke agglomeration), the material didn't rise to their talents: monster movies, I get it, Frank watched a lot of monster movies in the '50's, but it sounded like he was groping for subject matter to write about. And then, starting with Zoot Allures, it really went downhill. I found Sheik Yerbouti shocking in its vacuousness, similar to my hearing Beefheart with the "Tragic Band" in 1973. I liked the Drowning Witch album, and Utopia had some nice moments, but Them Or Us was the end for me. Count me among the "them," I suppose.

[Д.Д.]

Something seems to be not right with the distribution of Zappa's Ryko CDs (at least judging by amazon.com listings). Earlier this year quite a few disappeared temporarily for quite some time, and now some seem to be available only as amazon CD-R editions ("Guitar", for example). I don't know the details of the ZFT / Ryko agreement; but I think there was some acrimony there. Ryko overtake by Warner Bros. also didn't help, perhaps. ZFT has the original tapes, and is allowed to release their versions of the albums in Ryko's possession (albeit using different mastering and under different titles, and without using the original artwork - like in the case of MOFO and Lumpy/Money). Anybody knows anything specific?

[MomsMobley]

ah, but listen closely in other ways and he's pretty damn good at mixing up tones, rhythm, compositional nous etc. there are very few jazz dudes who had all that going for (regardless of instrument) and even less in rock-- someone might say Fripp comes closest but i've never cared enough to figure it out. and yes, Frank definitely "needed" rock n roll if only functionally, i.e. to work and make a band but almost everything else could be taken straight from blues, r&b, pre-"rock" rock & roll-- save the cover of "We're Only In It For The Money" of course.

Ever hear this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7sRApEhJDE

And for "Zoot Allures" non-fans--

My link

i'll defend/explain Thing-Fish later too.

5) as as a guitarist, I think FZ was over-rated; listen closely and you'll hear that he's a pattern player, like a lot of guitarists.

[Hot Ptah]

This topic should probably be merged with the larger Zappa thread here. Sorry, Big Al, that your thread got diverted.

I'll stick to what I wrote in the other thread: Zappa's inspired creativity peaked in the '68 - '71 timeframe. After the accident, there was the Wazoo tour (which I caught at the Felt Forum in '72), but then something in him seemed to have changed. Whatever the source of creativity is, it slowed down to a trickle in him. Overnite Sensation, Apostrophe are perfect examples of this. Even when he had a smokin' band (the Brock/Duke agglomeration), the material didn't rise to their talents: monster movies, I get it, Frank watched a lot of monster movies in the '50's, but it sounded like he was groping for subject matter to write about. And then, starting with Zoot Allures, it really went downhill. I found Sheik Yerbouti shocking in its vacuousness, similar to my hearing Beefheart with the "Tragic Band" in 1973. I liked the Drowning Witch album, and Utopia had some nice moments, but Them Or Us was the end for me. Count me among the "them," I suppose.

But....the 1988 big band tour. The recordings from that tour have some amazing moments, especially on 'Make a Jazz Noise Here.'

[7/4]

Something seems to be not right with the distribution of Zappa's Ryko CDs (at least judging by amazon.com listings). Earlier this year quite a few disappeared temporarily for quite some time, and now some seem to be available only as amazon CD-R editions ("Guitar", for example). I don't know the details of the ZFT / Ryko agreement; but I think there was some acrimony there. Ryko overtake by Warner Bros. also didn't help, perhaps. ZFT has the original tapes, and is allowed to release their versions of the albums in Ryko's possession (albeit using different mastering and under different titles, and without using the original artwork - like in the case of MOFO and Lumpy/Money). Anybody knows anything specific?

No. If that's really happening, I guess the ZFT took the next step in fucking up Frank's legacy.

[bertrand]

I bought three from Oldies for $7 each recently, and they had quite a few other titles in stock. Not sure what the deal is.

Listened to side 2 of Sleep Dirt today. 'The Ocean Is the Ultimate Solution' is one of Zappa's greatest performances. No one ever seems to mention it. Who else is on this record anyway?

Bertrand.

[7/4]

I bought three from Oldies for $7 each recently, and they had quite a few other titles in stock. Not sure what the deal is.

Listened to side 2 of Sleep Dirt today. 'The Ocean Is the Ultimate Solution' is one of Zappa's greatest performances. No one ever seems to mention it. Who else is on this record anyway?

Bertrand.

Frank Zappa - guitar, synthesizer

Patrick O'Hearn - bass

Terry Bozzio - drums

http://wiki.killuglyradio.com/wiki/The_Ocean_Is_The_Ultimate_Solution

then the whole album:

Frank Zappa (guitar, keyboards)

Dave Parlato (bass)

Terry Bozzio (drums)

George Duke (keyboards)

Patrick O'Hearn (bass)

Ruth Underwood (percussion)

Chad Wackerman (drum overdubs on CD)

Thana Harris (vocals overdubs on CD)

Bruce Fowler (all brass)

James Youman (bass)

Chester Thompson (drums)

http://wiki.killuglyradio.com/wiki/Sleep_Dirt

Sleep Dirt and especially Studio Tan are favorites! The original mixes without overdubs are on Läther.

Edited August 17, 2010 by 7/4