Avant-Garde Latin Jazz

[Sundog]

The topic title may be a little misleading; I'm really not sure if such a thing exisits, but what I'm looking for is music that employs a traditional latin rhythm section (in all it's forms) and various other soloists that play in a more outside if not downright free manner. Any help tracking down these types of recordings would be greatly appreciated.

P.S. Listening to Ray Barretto's "Espiritu Libre" from his album Acid got me thinking about this topic and serves as my original point of reference.

[mikeweil]

Your doubts are pretty much on point: The essence of "Latin Jazz" is the connection to the rhythm, and if you dissolve that with outside playing on top, you might as well have any other rhythm beneath.

There are bands that try expanding the rhythm as such, in the sense of not clinging fast to it that much. Some examples:

Jerry Gonzales & the Fort Apache Band: a modern rumba based rhythm fused with the playing concepts of Miles' 1960's quintet

Gonzalo Rubalcaba's 1970's albums on Messidor: the rhythm stretched to its limits.

Julio Barreto Cuban Quartet: Iyabó (Connector music): Cuban music plus fusion on the verge of free fusion (that's avan-garde for Cuba)

There are passages with free form blowing on top of Cuban rhythms, but only for a short time to create tension before they return to the groove, but any ignoring of the rhythm for a whole piece would miss the point.

In Brazilian music, Hermeto Pascoal did quite a few pieces with free form leanings.

Not sure that helps ....

[B. Clugston]

Eric Dolphy played on a couple of albums with two different incarnations of the Latin Jazz Quintet.

I've heard Caribe on Prestige and while it's pretty straight ahead, it's still Dolphy. The Quintet though is more jazz than Latin.

Never heard the other, which was reissued on CD at one point.

[Sundog]

This helps! They all sound very interesting and I'll be tracking these down in short order. Thanks very much Mike.

[ep1str0phy]

Lots and lots of Archie Shepp falls into this category--and the man had and has a feel for the rhythm that extends beyond his more 'outside' moments. His stuff post-60's, in particular, is rife with Latin grooves (e.g., the late Impulse! period). For some early fire music with a clave (haven't listened to it in a while, so...) dig Shepp's version of "The Girl from Ipanema." A lot of Mingus might fall into this category, too...

[JSngry]

Any Eddie Palmieri solo.

[Aggie87]

Gonzalo Rubalcaba's 1970's albums on Messidor: the rhythm stretched to its limits.

Thumbs up for "Mi Gran Pasion" (his first on Messidor), but "Giraldilla" never connected with me. I haven't heard any of his other early recordings.

[clifford_thornton]

Marion Brown - "Capricorn Moon" from the Marion Brown Quartet on ESP. Sort of a "Comin' Home Baby" vibe with the two basses starting things off, and they hold the Latin-y rhythm even as they (and Brown, Al Shorter and Rashied Ali) fracture it completely. It's a classic.

Ornette's Atlantics have some strong Latin-y moments as well as blues, "Una Muy Bonita" being the obvious choice but really it's all falling just to the left or right (or up or down) of a Latin/blues bag.

[Guy Berger]

Marion Brown - "Capricorn Moon" from the Marion Brown Quartet on ESP. Sort of a "Comin' Home Baby" vibe with the two basses starting things off, and they hold the Latin-y rhythm even as they (and Brown, Al Shorter and Rashied Ali) fracture it completely. It's a classic.

Ornette's Atlantics have some strong Latin-y moments as well as blues, "Una Muy Bonita" being the obvious choice but really it's all falling just to the left or right (or up or down) of a Latin/blues bag.

I don't think these are what the original poster is looking for...

Guy

[Nate Dorward]

Some of Kip Hanrahan's projects would fit the bill, I think (I say this without knowing his work well, but for instance the new Conjure album has Cuban percussion + David Murray & Billy Bang).

[Sundog]

Marion Brown - "Capricorn Moon" from the Marion Brown Quartet on ESP. Sort of a "Comin' Home Baby" vibe with the two basses starting things off, and they hold the Latin-y rhythm even as they (and Brown, Al Shorter and Rashied Ali) fracture it completely. It's a classic.

Ornette's Atlantics have some strong Latin-y moments as well as blues, "Una Muy Bonita" being the obvious choice but really it's all falling just to the left or right (or up or down) of a Latin/blues bag.

I don't think these are what the original poster is looking for...

Guy

Not exactly, but I do really like Herbie Mann- Live At The Village Gate and I've been meaning to pick up some Marion Brown for awhile, so this sounds intriguing as well.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Pharoah Sanders made an album for Trip with the Latin Jazz Quintet - called "Oh Pharoah speak". I didn't keep it long (more's the pity).

You might also try an album I got a week ago - "Harlem River Drive" by "Harlem River Drive" a band with Eddie & Charlie Palmieri, Ronnie Cuber (who plays some very interesting solos on soprano sax, as well as proiding a great bottom on baritone at other times), Cornell Dupree, Jerry Jemmott, Bernard Purdie, Burt Collins. Vocals are very political. I love it!

MG

PS - got it on Rod's recommendation. 100% satisfied.

Edited September 23, 2006 by The Magnificent Goldberg

[Sundog]

Pharoah Sanders made an album for Trip with the Latin Jazz Quintet - called "Oh Pharoah speak". I didn't keep it long (more's the pity).

You might also try an album I got a week ago - "Harlem River Drive" by "Harlem River Drive" a band with Eddie & Charlie Palmieri, Ronnie Cuber (who plays some very interesting solos on soprano sax, as well as proiding a great bottom on baritone at other times), Cornell Dupree, Jerry Jemmott, Bernard Purdie, Burt Collins. Vocals are very political. I love it!

MG

PS - got it on Rod's recommendation. 100% satisfied.

Thanks. Eddie & Charlie Palmieri, Ronnie Cuber (on soprano no less!), Cornell Dupree, Jerry Jemmont..... Sounds like it's in my wheelhouse as well!

[JSngry]

If you're looking for something "African", try this one:

Johnny Coles, Yusef Lateef, & Pat Patrick blowing in various degrees of "free" over a really smoking drum/percussion choir.

[mikeweil]

That may be the closest one can get to the initial request, especially as the rhythms applied are more Afro-Cuban than African in a strict sense. FWIW, a great record that I would hate to miss.

I second most of the recommendations posted - but I see Eddie Palmieri expanding on the tradition of rhythmic Cuban piano stylings rather than infusing free style techniques, although I know he listened to them.

[JSngry]

I second most of the recommendations posted - but I see Eddie Palmieri expanding on the tradition of rhythmic Cuban piano stylings rather than infusing free style techniques, although I know he listened to them.

Exactly, which is why it's the "best", imo, type of "out" - that which grows the tradition from within rather than attempting to change it from without.

[Nate Dorward]

Oh yeah--worth mentioning Henry Threadgill's Carry the Day.

[AllenLowe]

I'm going to mention one of my own CDs, "New Tango '92" which represents an approach to a whole slew of Latin influences - and I mention it BECAUSE it has Jeff Fuller, one of the greatest Latin bassists ever (he's worked with Paquito and Hilton Ruiz among others) - and Julius Hemphill, who is brilliant on it. All in all I think it's a successful fusion -

[Rob C]

Can't believe no one has mentioned Gato Barbieri--wouldn't a lot of his early work, like the stuff on Impulse!, fit the bill?

[ornette]

How about Conrad Herwig - Latin Side of Lohn Coltrane?

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

eric dolphy/latin jazz quintet- United Artists?

[paul secor]

Not Latin jazz and not exactly avant-garde either (tho it is, in a way), but definitely worth checking out if you're into the unusual:

Ned Sublette's Cowboy Rhumba (Palm Pictures) - Ned Sublette doing mostly his own cowboy songs, backed by great Latin musicians (also w. steel guuitarist Lloyd Maines on a couple of tunes). You've heard of Tex-Mex? Well this is Tex-Cuba- Puerto Rico-Dominican Republic. Great stuff!

[Sundog]

Thanks again to everyone who replied. Ordered these for starters....

Gonzalez, Jerry: Jerry Gonzalez Y Los Piratas Del Flamenco

Pascoal, Hermeto: Slaves Mass

Rubalcaba, Gonzalo: Mi Gran Pasion

Also going to get the "A.K. Salim" and "Julio Barreto" very soon.

[skeith]

Can't believe no one has mentioned Gato Barbieri--wouldn't a lot of his early work, like the stuff on Impulse!, fit the bill?

Absolutely!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[uli]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FztwFEk2nMk

and since shepp has alredy been mentioned i like this a lot

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nCac5p2Yc4

Edited March 30, 2015 by uli