NFL chat thread

[connoisseur series500]

PFW's opinion:

POSTED 11:12 p.m. EST, November 18, 2007

PATS GO TOO FAR, AGAIN

With a bye during Week Ten and a close game against the Colts before that, it has been three weeks since we've seen the Ferrari among a flock of Fords that is the New England Patriots.

And it's clear to us that coach Bill Belichick still doesn't know, or care, if he laps the field 50 times.

Twice in the third quarter while sporting huge leads, the Patriots kept the field goal unit on the sidelines for a fourth down deep in the Bills' end. On the second occasion, the Pats were up 42-10 on the Buffalo 10 and New England faced fourth and one.

The groan of disapproval from the crowd at Ralph Wilson Stadium was barely audible over the comments of NBC's Al Michaels and John Madden, who seemed to see no problem with the maneuver.

We did, and we do. The Patriots are abusing their power, in our view, and they'd better hope that Earl Hickey is wrong about that whole karma thing.

We don't know whether it's karma or fate or just an innate sense of justice and fairness, but we've had a feeling for a couple of weeks now that something will happen to keep the Pats from getting to the Super Bowl or, when they do, someone like Brett Favre will find a way to chop down the beanstalk.

I hate the mediots!

[papsrus]

Its a state school, and while it is trying to be more selective, its goal is to be a Top 10 public university - not quite the same as "top 10". And when Emmitt attended, believe me, its admissions policy was a lot more lenient - as was its educational standards.

Yep. Right you are. No. 49 according to U.S. News. (No. 17 among non-private schools).

[NaturalSoul]

Bill Belichick, what a guy.

[connoisseur series500]

The Bills' take on "running up the score:"

Coach Dick Jauron

(on the Patriots going for it on fourth down)

"No, I have no problems with that. It's our job to stop them. It's not their job to do what you or we might want them to do. They are just playing football."

General manager Marv Levy

(on the Patriots going for it on fourth down)

"They played magnificiently. They are as good of a team as I have seen in quite some time. I have no gripe for players who are out there and want to excel and want to do things, and want to look good, and play with pride. It's up to us to stop them and not say 'don't throw the ball, don't do this.' No gripes at all on that."

[alocispepraluger102]

we were never going to see this sort of excellence again with free agency.

i am glad we got to see excellence again in the nfl.

i suspect that, since nfl football has become like fastbreak basketball to the best teams, defenses are going to have to be given more freedom. new england and indy will adapt to those rules, as well.

[Van Basten II]

The Bills' take on "running up the score:"

Coach Dick Jauron

(on the Patriots going for it on fourth down)

"No, I have no problems with that. It's our job to stop them. It's not their job to do what you or we might want them to do. They are just playing football."

General manager Marv Levy

(on the Patriots going for it on fourth down)

"They played magnificiently. They are as good of a team as I have seen in quite some time. I have no gripe for players who are out there and want to excel and want to do things, and want to look good, and play with pride. It's up to us to stop them and not say 'don't throw the ball, don't do this.' No gripes at all on that."

Marv Levy is probably one of the classiest guys in football, too bad he never won the big one. In Montreal we still remember him fondly.

[Man with the Golden Arm]

re: "running up the score"?

if I'm paying upwards of a couple hundred a seat to watch a teams making more dough than imaginable put in reserves and go pre-season on me I'd be pissed. Belichick is the PT Barnum of the year and complaining that he should bring out the poodle act rather than stick with the fire breathing lion tamer is silly.

[Dan Gould]

I don't really know what the "right way to play the game" is in football compared to say baseball. But to me (and I say this as a Patriots fan), going for it on 4th down at the ten yard line with a big lead isn't appropriate.

In baseball, you don't steal with an 8 run lead. You don't swing at 3-0 with an 8 run lead.

Unless the team plans to never kick a FG and always go for touchdowns, at some point, you stop going for TDs on 4th and goal from a makable FG distance. I am not saying that a team should run the ball and not try to score. By all means, run your offense until you score, punt, or face 4th down from the ten yard line. At that point, you kick a FG, because its the right thing to do. You're respecting the game - by scoring points when possible - while at the same time respecting your opponent by not, yes, running up the score.

Since when is toying with your opponent and disrespecting them the act of sportsmen? I don't know if karma will get pissed and take it out on the Pats at some point, but I think sportsmanship has a place in the game.

Maybe its a function of the game - football is a brutal sport, played by manly men who are out there to kick the crap out of their opponent. Maybe there is no thing as letting up, maybe its just like boxing - keep hitting your opponent until the referee makes you stop.

Conn brought up college football and that makes me think of the criticism Spurrier received when he coached the Gators. He'd always say, we're going to run our offense, its up to them to stop us. How can I tell my kids not to play hard? And as much as I despised the man, it was impossible to argue with that. But at the same time, I cannot remember a time that even Spurrier wouldn't send out his FG unit with a huge lead and 4th down at the ten yard line.

If this means I think Spurrier has more respect for the game than Belicik, then so be it.

[Noj]

What good does a field goal do when up 4+ touchdowns? May as well go for six as turn the ball over on downs. No reason to not be confident in getting a first down, the defense hadn't earned that level of respect. Run the score up and prevent the opposition from having any chance of a miracle comeback. As much as I hate the Pats, if they were my team I'd like the victory guaranteed by thoroughly stomping opponents.

[alocispepraluger102]

Bill Belichick, what a guy.

a graduate of braxton's super exclusive school, wesleyan, but, alas, not good enough to coach the browns.

wonder if bill digs anthony? maybe a halftime show for AB at the superbowl?

Edited November 19, 2007 by alocispepraluger102

[alocispepraluger102]

The Bills' take on "running up the score:"

Coach Dick Jauron

(on the Patriots going for it on fourth down)

"No, I have no problems with that. It's our job to stop them. It's not their job to do what you or we might want them to do. They are just playing football."

General manager Marv Levy

(on the Patriots going for it on fourth down)

"They played magnificiently. They are as good of a team as I have seen in quite some time. I have no gripe for players who are out there and want to excel and want to do things, and want to look good, and play with pride. It's up to us to stop them and not say 'don't throw the ball, don't do this.' No gripes at all on that."

Marv Levy is probably one of the classiest guys in football, too bad he never won the big one. In Montreal we still remember him fondly.

is marv still gm at buffalo?

buffalo is an excellent team.

[Shawn]

I don't have a problem with running up the score, in fact I think this entire "debate" is silly. You wanna know what REALLY bothers me? When a team DOESN'T go for the jugular (how many times have we seen teams blow big leads and lose?).

If you can score 70 points against a vastly inferior team...GO FOR IT. Going for it on 4th down keeps their defense on the field, keeps their offense warming the bench and keeps your own team with sole possession of the clock. It's impossible for them to make a comeback if they never get the ball.

I don't see any "revenge agendas" on Bill's mind...I see a great coach who wants his team to perform to their abilities and who wants to stick to his game plan REGARDLESS of what the opposition dictates. It's not Bill's fault that the rest of the NFL is barely even in the rear view mirror, why should he show mercy? Fuck it. Keep being aggressive until somebody proves they can stop you.

I don't see it happening this year. 16-0, Super Bowl bound.

...and I'm not even a Patriots fan, I just call it like I see it.

[papsrus]

Strictly from a viewer's point of view, I'd rather watch that Patriots offense all game long, I don't care what the score is. Go for 100!

And from a coach's point of view, you're playing with fire when you try to reign in your team. I hope they keep their foot on the gas as long as this ride lasts.

[NaturalSoul]

Bill Belichick, what a guy.

a graduate of braxton's super exclusive school, wesleyan, but, alas, not good enough to coach the browns.

wonder if bill digs anthony? maybe a halftime show for AB at the superbowl?

Hey! That was a serious post!

[Dan Gould]

What good does a field goal do when up 4+ touchdowns?

Make the margin five scores instead of four?

[Noj]

In a close game, it makes sense to take the 3 points and make sure you don't come up empty (depending on the amount of time left in the game, of course). In a complete blowout, it makes more sense to just go for it since the consequences of a turnover on downs are so much less. If nothing else it's good practice for the offense to build confidence that they can convert on 4th down. I don't see anything wrong with kicking the crap out of an opponent and rubbing their collective nose in it.

[Van Basten II]

The Bills' take on "running up the score:"

Coach Dick Jauron

(on the Patriots going for it on fourth down)

"No, I have no problems with that. It's our job to stop them. It's not their job to do what you or we might want them to do. They are just playing football."

General manager Marv Levy

(on the Patriots going for it on fourth down)

"They played magnificiently. They are as good of a team as I have seen in quite some time. I have no gripe for players who are out there and want to excel and want to do things, and want to look good, and play with pride. It's up to us to stop them and not say 'don't throw the ball, don't do this.' No gripes at all on that."

Marv Levy is probably one of the classiest guys in football, too bad he never won the big one. In Montreal we still remember him fondly.

is marv still gm at buffalo?

buffalo is an excellent team.

Yeah he is. He retired for a while but went back, he's not getting any younger, he's now 82.

[connoisseur series500]

Here's what Belichick said today on the subject:

"Those situations, that point in the game I think I really don't like kicking field goals," said Belichick. "I feel like that's just adding points, so I'd rather go for it on fourth down and give them an opportunity to stop us. Our offense moved the ball well, so give them an opportunity to keep playing."

Makes sense to me.

[GARussell]

The Bills' take on "running up the score:"

General manager Marv Levy

(on the Patriots going for it on fourth down)

"They played magnificiently. They are as good of a team as I have seen in quite some time. I have no gripe for players who are out there and want to excel and want to do things, and want to look good, and play with pride. It's up to us to stop them and not say 'don't throw the ball, don't do this.' No gripes at all on that."

Marv Levy is probably one of the classiest guys in football, too bad he never won the big one. In Montreal we still remember him fondly.

I think that Marv Levy was the last NFL/American rules football coach to succeed in the CFL, and that was over thirty years ago.

When there were five CFL teams in the US in the 90s, all but Baltimore hired American rules coaches, and Baltimore was the only one that did well.

[T.D.]

IIRC, Bills GM Marv Levy is a Harvard grad [Added: he has an MA from Harvard, but didn't attend as an undergraduate], and coach Dick Jauron a Yale grad. This Ivy League GM-coach combo must be very rare in professional sports (I can't say it's never occurred, but I doubt it has in the NFL).

Edited November 20, 2007 by T.D.

[Aggie87]

IIRC, Bills GM Marv Levy is a Harvard grad [Added: he has an MA from Harvard, but didn't attend as an undergraduate], and coach Dick Jauron a Yale grad. This Ivy League GM-coach combo must be very rare in professional sports (I can't say it's never occurred, but I doubt it has in the NFL).

That means Dumpy Mama must respect their opinions!

[Free For All]

Assuming Dallas beats NY today, the 11/29 meeting between them and the Packers is looking to be a good game between two 10-1 teams. The Packers continue to improve and are looking very impressive. I think we'll be seeing these teams again for the NFC champoinship- it will be interesting to see if that game is in GB or Irving.

It will also be interesting to see if Indy regains their confidence- they may not be in the AFC championship game at all if they don't get it together.

The health status of the teams will certainly play a role in the outcome- currently there are numerous injuries to key players on these teams.

Happy Turkey Day!

[sheldonm]

Assuming Dallas beats NY today, the 11/29 meeting between them and the Packers is looking to be a good game between two 10-1 teams. The Packers continue to improve and are looking very impressive. I think we'll be seeing these teams again for the NFC champoinship- it will be interesting to see if that game is in GB or Irving.

It will also be interesting to see if Indy regains their confidence- they may not be in the AFC championship game at all if they don't get it together.

The health status of the teams will certainly play a role in the outcome- currently there are numerous injuries to key players on these teams.

Happy Turkey Day!

I think they will be ok but any team.....EVEN the Patriots would not fare well with 6 or more starters out at the same time. The Colts have played 6 games in the past 31 days...which is an issue as well. Despite the two losses, they are basically 10 poorly played minutes vs. the Pats and a missed field goal away from being 11-0....but shit happens. They now have nine days before their next game....a little time for the guys to heal a bit....looking forward to December!

m~

[connoisseur series500]

EVEN the Patriots would not fare well with 6 or more starters out at the same time.

It's tough for sure, but the Patriots have been playing without several starters for several years in a row. This year they have been blessed with fewer injuries, but the team last year which held a 21-3 lead against the Colts in the AFC championship game were playing without starters, Richard Seymour, Eugene Wilson, Rodney Harrison, Junior Seau, and another starter or two which escapes my memory. I think Lawrence Maroney was out for that game as well, of if he wasn't, he was rendered ineffective by an injury which required offseason surgery. They had to start Reche Caldwell (who isn't even playing football right now) and Jabar Gaffney as wideouts because Chad Jackson was injured. I can't remember if Troy Brown was injured for the game. They still finished 12-4 last year and outplayed the Colts for half the game. Pats have always suffered from injuries, and the team has never used it as an excuse for losing. The 53 man roster is meant to handle such contingencies. The problem with the Colts is that they pay a handful of guys a ton of money, so they can't afford to keep much depth in any position. The Pats pay scale is more egalitarian. Ty Warren doesn't get anywhere as much money as Dwight Freeney, but that allows the team to pay backup Jarvis Green decent cash. The Colts' pay Freeney a ton of money so if he goes down, his replacement might not be as good since he isn't paid as much. Jarvis Green could start on most NFL teams, and the Pats pay him good money to stay as a backup. Patriots have always been about depth as opposed to big stars. This year has been a bit different, I think. They've got Randy Moss and Asante Samuel who will likely be looking for big money. We'll see if they adopt the Colts' way of paying big $ to keep big names around at the expense of depth. It will be interesting.

Yes, I guess the Colts will likely be there to face the Pats in the AFC Championship game, but they'll have to get past Pittsburgh first.

Edited November 24, 2007 by connoisseur series500

[connoisseur series500]

Come to think of it, we, Pat fans probably did use injuries as an excuse for losing games.