Bob Dylan Modern Times

[Man with the Golden Arm]

Why does clem "HATE springsteen so much"? seriously.

[Parkertown]

Haters!

[paul secor]

p/s2: do i remember a lame version of "you don't miss yr water" on "Sweetheart of the Rodeo"? feh. Gram was talented but a black southern soul singer he weren't.

Always felt that Gram Parsons was a better idea than a reality. The concept was there; the image was there; maybe some of the will was there; but there just wasn't much that was real there. For me, the Everly Brothers did it much, much better ten years earlier. I can listen to them, some of the Bakersfield cats, and maybe Percy Sledge or Arthur Alexander and hear what Gram Parsons was supposed to be. OK - he put the hippie spin on it, but, for me, that's nothing much.

Just my take. I'm sure others might disagree, but I know where I'm at on this - have been for a long time.

[Hot Ptah]

p/s2: do i remember a lame version of "you don't miss yr water" on "Sweetheart of the Rodeo"? feh. Gram was talented but a black southern soul singer he weren't.

Always felt that Gram Parsons was a better idea than a reality. The concept was there; the image was there; maybe some of the will was there; but there just wasn't much that was real there. For me, the Everly Brothers did it much, much better ten years earlier. I can listen to them, some of the Bakersfield cats, and maybe Percy Sledge or Arthur Alexander and hear what Gram Parsons was supposed to be. OK - he put the hippie spin on it, but, for me, that's nothing much.

Just my take. I'm sure others might disagree, but I know where I'm at on this - have been for a long time.

For me, he hit a career high point on "Grevious Angel", which to me is one of those albums where they caught lightning in a bottle when it was recorded. If he had lived for another 50 years he probably would not have done anything nearly as good again. The rest of his output---I largely agree with you.

[mailman]

Winter/Spring '62 for Dylan/Zimmerman's visit would fit. Actually, Spider John Koerner and Dave "Snaker" Ray had been around the U. of C. campus (singly or together, I can't be sure) shortly before or after Dylan/Zimmerman arrived. IIRC they made a better impression musically, but because Big Joe Williams was also present fairly often, certain differences were clear.

Spider John Koerner and Dave Snaker Ray. Wow. I haven't heard those guys in at least thirty five years. Do you know what they are up to these days> I used to have a great lp by Koerner called 'Running Jumping Standing Still' that paired him with a wonderful pianist and singer. Wish I still had that one. Seems like such a long time ago.

[ghost of miles]

Re: Webb Pierce, I still intend to pick up that Bear Family box one of these days--still in print, I believe. All I have right now is a single-disc promo I nabbed while I worked at a Chain That Shall Go Nameless. My buddy Greg turned me onto him--Clem, I know you do a ton of listening, but if you're ever bored in NYC on Monday night between 7 & 9 EST (unlikely, I'm sure, but just in case), you might want to check out his show on our community radio station here in B-town: Rhythm Ranch (a lot of the links aren't live yet--he's adding content whenever he gets a chance). He's got an incredible amount of knowledge & music and presents his shows very well... not too much gab, just enough interesting info, and a LOT of obscure folks who've fallen through the cracks of our current musical history. Direct listen live link here. (Though if you happen to tune in tonight, you'll hear a bunch of fund-drive pitches, no doubt... they just kicked off their autumn one. Cool station, though... it's where Greg & I got our start, doing a vintage music show called--thank you, Tina Brooks--"Back to the Tracks.")

Based on what I've read here, I won't be rushing out to buy the new Dylan. Wasn't expecting too much from it anyway... he seems to be in a real retrospective phase, which, given his age (65?) seems natural; anyway, at this point I'm more interested in something like CHRONICLES than I am in new recordings by him.

[Adam]

Honestly, Bug Music could/should sue Dylan for claiming authorship of Rollin' and Tumblin, on behalf of the estate of Muddy Waters.

That said, right now Rollin' and Tumblin is my favorite cut on MODERN TIMES, but I've listened only 3 times or so. Musically, I don't find the album very interesting, but I want to spend more time with the lyrics, and the songs.

[paul secor]

Clem has mentioned John Koerner. Haven't heard him in a long time - didn't grab me then, but perhaps he or I or both of us have changed over time. (I hope we both have.)

Anyway, I'd like to add Michael Hurley's name and music to the mix - anyone who's interested in later (or perhaps any) Dylan could do worse than to check his stuff out.

[bluesbro]

Honestly, Bug Music could/should sue Dylan for claiming authorship of Rollin' and Tumblin, on behalf of the estate of Muddy Waters.

That said, right now Rollin' and Tumblin is my favorite cut on MODERN TIMES, but I've listened only 3 times or so. Musically, I don't find the album very interesting, but I want to spend more time with the lyrics, and the songs.

And the estate of Robert Johnson should follow by suing the Muddy Waters estate for claiming autorship of 'If I had possesion over judgement day'. And then....

[Adam]

re: folk process, this IS complicated question in light of "Modern Times" dullardness, I'm not inclined toward sympathy. ALSO--

1) why EVER credit old blues blurring into p.d. songs?

2) why the FUCK did Bob do "Good As I Been to You" & "World Gone Wrong"?

consistently inconsistent, i remain--

c

I'll take on 2 first. I think he was dry of new material, and felt a need to recharge by covering some old stuff. As I like those albums, I think it was a fine decision for him to make. What is wrong with cover versions? They were trifles in the overall Dylan oeuvre, but still all right.

As to 1. Well, since I'm in the midst of licensing or not licensing a whole bunch of old folk songs for a box set of music & film from Hal Willner's concerts organized to honor Harry Smith and the Anthology of American Folk Music, I can say honestly that there is no rhyme or reason to it. Some people got a claim of authorship in after 1923, and it's held up. Other songs we can show predate 1923, so we are calling them traditional. There are both song writing and arrangement credits possible, and people will usually claim an arrangement credit even on an old song. (See Springsteen's Seeger sessions credits). Others, such as the songs of Blind Lemon Jefferson, are now PD just because no one really claims ownership.

Oh, I would imagine that the publishing for Robert Johnson (King of Spades publishing, contact through Music & Media Ltd.) could sue in theory, but they probably know that some evidence exists that the song actually predates Johnson.

It really goes on a case-by-case basis, and all only makes sense in terms of a system of making sure people make money.

I mean, "Happy Birthday to you" still is "owned" by a publilsher, although the music is known to date to a 19th century children's song. But the lyrics were an incredible innovation. :-)

Edited September 18, 2006 by Adam

[Chuck Nessa]

Have you heard this obscure old blues song, "Rollin' & Tumblin'"? It's sumpin' else!! (Parts 1 & 2.) Originally released Aristocrat single 412, in 1950, writer credit to one McKinley Morganfield, Watertoons Music, BMI adm. Bug.

c

***

p/s: check that--

"Watertoons Music, owned by The Estate of McKinley Morganfield administered by Bug."

Clem, your might have "stepped on your dick" here. I believe the Chess/Aristocrat recording was a cover of Baby Face Leroy Foster's recording (with Muddy and Little Walter) on Parkway done a month earlier. Little Walter always claimed authorship. Delmark issued this on vinyl (DL-648) and cd but I strongly recommend the lp - they robbed the cd of the recording's soul.

[ghost of miles]

I have some Leroy Foster (Aristocrat 1234, "Locked Out Boogie" b/w "Shady Grove Blues") here on the 2-cd "Best of Aristocrat"

That is a hell of a collection--right up there with THE COBRA RECORDS STORY and the three-CD Vanguard when I think of my favorite Chicago blues compilations. (AND THIS IS MAXWELL STREET in the running as well.) If it's still in print, those who like Chi-town blues are highly advised to run down a copy.

[Adam]

side Q: Adam, are you considering material from Harry's Vol. IV or just the original Folkways three?

to quote the last line of great Phil Ochs review of yore,

blow me Zimmy,

c

Hi,

There are a couple songs from vol. IV that are in the mix as well, 'Last Fair Deal Gone Down" covered by Beck, "Dog and Gun" by Richard Thompson. The concerts all happened in 1999-2001 - this is a box set coming out on Oct. 24 with 2 CDs of music from the concerts, and 2 DVDs, 1 of performances, 1 on Harry Smith and the Anthology. I worked on the two DVDs, not on the CDs. But I can start a separate thread on the box where I try to get you all to buy it.

[Alexander]

There are a couple songs from vol. IV that are in the mix as well, 'Last Fair Deal Gone Down" covered by Beck, "Dog and Gun" by Richard Thompson. The concerts all happened in 1999-2001 - this is a box set coming out on Oct. 24 with 2 CDs of music from the concerts, and 2 DVDs, 1 of performances, 1 on Harry Smith and the Anthology. I worked on the two DVDs, not on the CDs. But I can start a separate thread on the box where I try to get you all to buy it.

I'm looking forward to this. I read about the concerts recently and I was interested to see that Beck was involved. I LOVE the Anthology and I'd love to hear the music from the concerts...

[Hot Ptah]

I don't understand those who defend Dylan taking full credit for "Rollin' and Tumblin'" and "Trouble No More" by stating that those songs pre-dated Muddy Waters and thus Muddy should not have been given a songwriting credit for them. This argument often continues by citing Robert Johnson songs and other songs which pre-dated the version that is copyrighted.

So what? Can't Bob do the right thing in 2006?

Is a new Presidential graft scandal perfectly all right because "Warren G. Harding did it in the 1920s with Teapot Dome--it's part of a folk tradition!" Why does an old violation decades ago justify a new violation today?

[ep1str0phy]

Although I honestly have no opinion on the Dylan, I'll jump in on the Beck--if only to say that his earlier, independent label folk/experimental stuff (and now I sound the elitist) is quite different from the hopped up techno/disco/space pop gloss that he's been working with the past few years (and I actually happen to enjoy a lot of that, if only because I literally grew up with Beck's early career--sentimentalism is as poor an argument as any, to be sure--and I somewhat am and most certainly was not as well versed in the hip-hop that Beck so publicly parodied as I should like). Regardless, I'd take that earlier material to be of a different breed--lo-fi, alternativish folk, to give it a genre, but in its own way a great deal more sincere and affecting than the major label stuff. And I wouldn't fault that guy on sources--beyond broad stylistic rips, of course, of which there are several...

[Alexander]

context lightbulb aha!-- i HATE beck, esp. his bathetic, banal fake-ass 'folk' pop, "Sea Change." i laffed heartily when i later learned he was scientologist too. no disrespect to Adam's work (Willner's ecumenicism is always cause for equal cheers & shivers but hey, I think Lou Reed is inane jackoff also) but just to say Al & I ain't gonna agree on dick. i have no opinion on beck's disco/funk tho' i wonder how much hip-hop his biggest fans listen to.

ptah: stay strong, we're w/you, brutha'. booby done fucked up this time.

c

I'm a big Lou Reed fan as well (not "Metal Machine Music," but I have everything by the Velvet Underground and several of his more important solo albums).

[Adam]

Lou Reed's track on here is quite intense, one of the best. So we may disagree on this one, Clem.

I didn't know that Beck was a Scientologist. Are you sure about that?

Anyway, I saw him in concert at the Wiltern recently and it was a fun show. Good puppets, and my friend & I danced. Beck was in good voice.

[Chuck Nessa]

Sorry, why all this obsession with music from your youth? Don't have shit to do with reality.

[medjuck]

Sorry, why all this obsession with music from your youth? Don't have shit to do with reality.

"Music from our youth!!" I was middle-aged by the time a lot of these artists made their mark. Meanwhile I'm obsessed with music from before I was born.

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

screw modern times bob shuld of just released a live dvd of his 2005 tour. he took his bob dylan songs and made them even more country than usual, w/ pedal steel and violin again n stuff. it was AWESOME

[J Larsen]

I didn't know that Beck was a Scientologist. Are you sure about that?

I'm not Clem, but I am sure about Beck being a Scientologist.

[jazzbo]

Well I finally got to hear Modern Times, once. I'll listen to it again (and again).

I'm with Hot Ptah on this theivery of the songs however, I don't think Dylan should get a pass on this, no matter how much I admire his work and understand the process of regurgitating the tradition. It has to be a deliberate move to not credit some or all of the sources for these tunes he's appropriated.

I sort of think it's a facet of his personality. The man started off stealing the image and personality of a true individual. He rose to fame in a blinding burst of truly innovative writing (even if founded on some traditional tunes) . . . I mean "Masters of War", "Visions of Johanna," "She Belongs to Me". . . Amazing stuff, unlike anything else. He became ridiculously popular and "successful" and he tried on some other outfits, the Nashville ones for example that brought out the movie, the Cash sessions, and the (in my opinion masterful) "Blood on the Tracks capper to that run. He put on roots rockers clothes with The Band, he put on greasepaint for the seventies greasy rock Revue, he put on evangelical robes to do Christ rock and gospel rewrites. . . .

Who is this guy is probably a legitimate question? Was he ever himself? I think he has the self-destructive and insecure personality of a gambler and a thief. I think he makes these costume changes as a ploy to get himself primed for keeping the love-hate cycle he has with fame and fortune going when it needs to be going. And I think this love of theft and love and theft of the old songs is a part of the self-destructive thrill. It's one way for him to be on top of the hill and yet one slip away from the fall to the valley below. It's got to be an excitement for him, one of those spinal column chill things that he may not get otherwise. It's parcel of the personality he seems to have exhibited from the start, it's the fully matured old man version. That's how I see it, I could be wrong. It's almost as if he's daring to be called on this and held to task, and chuckling that he still has them all at bay.

The cd itself? Some good Texas blues boogie music again. Denny Freeman on board, Denny delivers, in my opinion he always has, I've seen him up close and personal dozens of times. . . . It's not a great cd, not a Dylan masterpiece, but it's entertaining, I'll get some mileage out of it.

[jazzbo]

I never read the Chronicle, about four years ago decided that was a waste of time. No looking back. I don't need to READ about Texas music. I can smell it in the air or just remember a few bad nights on stage at Steamboat.

[jazzbo]

dude you and I have very different musical tastes and I don't HAVE to read anything, I don't have to read ANYTHING. Arrogance is your attitude that whatever isn't swimming in your pool is a shark or a turd in the bowl. I just get sick of that 'tude dude.

I was IN the music scene for a spell and decided it was not for me and I just don't want to go there. I wouldn't go to Emos with all those college kids for love or money. I'm a grownup now. I'm just done with all that and don't need to read about stuff or pretend I'm hip. Don't need to be out on the scene any longer, I've got my life and I'm happy with it, all but the employment part, but I'm toughing out three more years til retirement, and then deciding whether to blow Austinville for somewhere closer to family, or doing something fun or fulfilling in the town for grins and less dollars.

Actually, I'm quite interested in social activism and do my lilttle bits though admittedly less now as I have caretaking full time to do, but the Chronicle. . . just can't get past the "too cool for school" look and attitude and I just don't read stuff on newsprint anymore. I just don't have the time for stuff like that, I'm maxed out on a lot of other things.

I know what I want to know about Texas music and I leave the rest.