Miles Davis

[mrjazzman]

Does anyone have a copy of this very difficult to find cd. How does it sound, is it worth $79 or $99. Is this the first recording with George Coleman?????????

[Stereojack]

Does anyone have a copy of this very difficult to find cd. How does it sound, is it worth $79 or $99. Is this the first recording with George Coleman?????????

I bought it when it came out. Changing copyright laws in Europe forced the label to discontinue it. The sound is very good - much better than the LP "Miles Davis In Europe", which was recorded one day later at the same venue (Antibes Jazz Festival).

The first recording with Coleman is "Seven Steps To Heaven", recorded two months earlier.

Is it worth $79 or $99? Depends on whether you're buying it or selling it.

[Guy Berger]

Isn't this on the trading circuit? You could probably get it for free. I'm sure the music is great.

Guy

[jazzbo]

Music is great. Not sure I'd say it sound better than really good remasterings of Live in Europe, but it sounds good, the recording of an FM broadcast I believe.

Great music. Like Jack I bought this when it first came out and even found a second copy later. . . .Haven't seen a copy for sale at less than thirty dollars for a long time.

[John L]

I've never heard it, but now I'm intrigued. Anything "much better" than Live in Europe must be something close to the greatest jazz album every made.

[brownie]

'Cote Blues' was recorded at the 1963 Antibes/Juan les Pins jazz festival one day before the 'Miles a Antibes' which was the original title of the French CBS release of the 'Miles in Europe' album. The French CBS vinyl has slightly better sound than the US issue.

'Cote Blues' is just about as good. I still see secondhand copies from time to time over here.

[Stereojack]

I've never heard it, but now I'm intrigued. Anything "much better" than Live in Europe must be something close to the greatest jazz album every made.

I said that the sound is better than the "Live in Europe" LP. I meant the original LP, which always had lousy sound, even though the music was great. The remastered version of "Live in Europe" (I have it on the "Seven Steps To Heaven" box) is a huge improvement.

On the original LP, the drums sounded off-mike. Since Columbia did not record this, but acquired the tapes from whoever did, I always assumed that this was the best they could do with what was provided to them. When I first heard "Cote Blues", most likely from the same source, I wondered why Columbia had not issued this set instead, since the sound was better. When the remastered version of "Live in Europe" came out on the box in 2004, I figured out what must have happened. Columbia must have figured that the drums were too loud, and re-EQ'ed the tapes to lower the drums' volume. Remember that before "Live In Europe" was issued, the world had not yet really heard this band with the dynamic Tony Williams in all its live glory. It turns out that the source tape for "Live in Europe" was fine, it was just butchered in the process that led to the LP.

[brownie]

The French CBS vinyl has a note in French indicating the album was recorded by 'la Radiodiffusion-Télévision Française' and was published with the RTF and the Festival organizers' authorizations.

The tapes should be now in the hands of INA (Institut National de l'Audiovisuel', the government body where all radio and TV tapes from the government broadcasts company are being preserved.

[erhodes]

'Cote Blues' was recorded at the 1963 Antibes/Juan les Pins jazz festival one day before the 'Miles a Antibes' which was the original title of the French CBS release of the 'Miles in Europe' album. The French CBS vinyl has slightly better sound than the US issue.

'Cote Blues' is just about as good. I still see secondhand copies from time to time over here.

Most of "Cote Blues" was recorded on July 26, the day before the material that Columbia released, but the last two tracks - "If I Were A Bell" and "So What" - are actually from July 28. Also, "Cote Blues" has only four of the eight titles (including "The Theme") recorded on July 26. OTOH, the two tracks from July 28 are the only ones that survive from that date so the cd is "complete" with regard to that concert.

The original Columbia lp seems to have been released in an artificial stereo, which accounts for at least some of the sound quality issues. The "Seven Steps" box claims that the concert was recorded in mono.

The complete July 26 concert is definitely on the trading circuit, though I don't have it.

Ed Rhodes

[jazzbo]

Jack, I understand what you meant, now, of course.

Yes, the "Live in Europe" was rechanneled for stereo. UGH. It still made me so damned excited with the amazing performance by Tony Williams though! That was so inspiring. . . when I first heard it (sometime in the early seventies) it made me want to get a drumset!

[Stereojack]

Yes, the "Live in Europe" was rechanneled for stereo. UGH. It still made me so damned excited with the amazing performance by Tony Williams though! That was so inspiring. . . when I first heard it (sometime in the early seventies) it made me want to get a drumset!

The phony stereo only compounds the problem. I tracked down a mono copy years ago, and the drums still sounded off-mike.

I agree that the music is spectacular.

[bertrand]

Brownie brings up an interesting topic, which probably should lead to a separate thread.

INA is one of many reposits in Europe of tons of jazz audio and video broadcasts which are officially owned by the government. So far, these sources have been almost impossible to crack. You would not believe some of the stuff that exists out there which almost no one has seen or heard since the original broadcast.

Curiously, INA was actually the source for one of the rare exceptions, due to an error on the part of one of their staffers. About 10 years ago, there was a series of CDs that came out (I think it said INA diffusion on the back cover) by Monk, Mingus and others. Problem is, no one had secured the rights! All the CDs were pulled after a lawsuit by some of the estates, and the responsible was sacked (I believe).

When I met Don Sickler briefly in his office in NYC in April, he told me excitedly about the upcoming DVDs featuring rare European TV broadcasts not seen since their only airing. He was involved in this transaction, and told me it seemed to him that the 'European vaults were starting to crack open' (I paraphrase). I hope his optimism is well-placed.

So my question is this (for our European board members):

Do any of you have any 'inside' access to people working at these state archives? Is there anything that can be done to further this 'cracking open'? Do different countries have a detailed list of their holdings? INA had some database and I was given a printout of their Wayne Shorter holdings (which will now be out of date but it was detailed - song titles, personnel, dates). I've been told by at least one person in 'higher circles' that I am naive in thinking we can ever get the estates to reach a cordial agreement, but the speed at which the Monk/Trane Carnegie Hall CD came out (less than a year after discovery of the tape at the Library of Congress) makes me think things may not necessarily be so hard. If INA had actually done their job and contacted the estates, are we sure a deal could not have been worked out?

Food for thought...

Bertrand.

Edited August 24, 2006 by bertrand

[brownie]

Bertrand, until recently INA was like a fortress. Very difficult to enter and nearly impossible to come out from the place with anything unless you paid the price which could be sky high.

However there have been cracks recently and most noticeably when they opened their video archives.

http://www.ina.fr/index.en.html

You can peek inside, lots of free stuff but if you want the full videos you've got to pay the price. But I have not been able to get a look at the video of the Love Supreme 1965 concert by Coltrane at the Juan les Pins festival. I'm not sure they still have that even if it's supposed to be archived at their place.

No idea who to contact there for a good look at what they have archived. All I know is that they have plenty.

The jazz albums they put out back around 1990 had some incredible concert tapes. They were released on the Esoldun label. Stuff rom Coltrane, Monk, Roland Kirk, Charles Mingus, Stuff Smith, Coleman Hawkins, Count Basie, Woody Herman, Bill Evans among many others. Those CDs disappeared when INA was taken to court by the Monk, Bill Evans, Mingus estates among others. INA was fined a stiff sentence and they have kept away from handling any of those archives.

Doubt they are ready to get back on that field for the time being.

[jazzbo]

That was an amazing series of cds. . . I bought the Monk and Mingus ones when I could, and glad I did. I believe all these have appeared since in another guise . . . .

[brownie]

That was an amazing series of cds. . . I bought the Monk and Mingus ones when I could, and glad I did. I believe all these have appeared since in another guise . . . .

Not sure all of them have come up yet. The Monks and Minguses, some Bill Evans...

I have not seen the Roland Kirks, Coleman Hawkins, Earl Hines, etc...

But the Andorran folks may well be working on filling the gaps

[king ubu]

The Mingus is the Chateauvallon disc, yes? Isn't speed off there?

As for Bertrand's optimism: isn't it possible the the Monk/Trane could be released so fast because a) it's not just some artist's live concert, but... and b) both the Monk estate and Alice/Ravi are truly dedicated folks, not crooks in for money or other weirdos? (Eroll Garner, to some extent I'm afraid also Sue Mingus...or will she ever release some of the stuff she promised?)

The situation is different from country to country. In Switzerland you have three national broadcasting companies (German, French & Italian), in Germany you have regional stations (NDR, MDR, WDR, BR, HR, SWR, etc), and each of these has their own archives (maybe the swiss stations have a common one, since the Italian one is often broadcasting recordings from the German and French ones, too). I've had a tiny bit of insight in the case of SWR when we tried to do that Basie website, some time back. They have typewritten session logs for each recording they did, and if you ask them, they will kindly provide photocopies of them - but of course no recordings, even if it's just a recent re-broadcast. These session logs, in Basie's case, show a lot of deleted material, some of which has been broadcast, some not. That's the next point, then... all these stations are likely to have space and storage issues, too...

Oh, and SWR recently broadcasted some of their own Kirk recordings and threw in a few tracks from the Paris concerts that were on Esoldun... I found that rather remarkable, broadcasting bootlegs that are owned (or rather: held) by another radio station...

[brownie]

The Mingus is the Chateauvallon disc, yes?

Mingus at Chateauvallon 1972 was one but Esoldun released 'Meditation' and 'Live in Paris 1964, vol. 2' (which Sue Mingus reused for a reissue of her own).

There also was a Chet Baket at Chateauvallon 1978 which - unless I am wrong - has been reissued recently by the Andorrans...

[jazzbo]

I don't remember the sound being off on that. I also believe there is another one. . . I'd have to look through my collection, but I think I have/had two.

[erhodes]

...until recently INA was like a fortress. Very difficult to enter and nearly impossible to come out from the place with anything unless you paid the price which could be sky high.

However there have been cracks recently and most noticeably when they opened their video archives.

http://www.ina.fr/index.en.html

You can peek inside, lots of free stuff but if you want the full videos you've got to pay the price. But I have not been able to get a look at the video of the Love Supreme 1965 concert by Coltrane at the Juan les Pins festival. I'm not sure they still have that even if it's supposed to be archived at their place.

In this regard, the following old posts from the coltrane-l listserv might be of interest.

Fri, 2 Feb 2001 10:25:53 +0000

There do exist complete video films of Naima and Blue Waltz from Antibes

65. A video tape containing this material has been sold in France around

1992 and a CDV was available in Japan a few years ago. The quality of the

film is very good.

Some excerpts of ALS (complete Acknowledgement and the first 6 min of

Resolution) and the nearly complete version of Impressions with the

introductory bass solo (the piano solo is edited) also exist. But this has

never been commercialy available.

Alain Venditti.

...and...

Fri, 2 Feb 2001 11:15:22 +0100

The two concerts in Antibes 1965, were recorded for TV by the French TV

Director Jean-Christophe Averty. Were they broadcasted I don't know. All

this material, if it still exists, must be archived at INA (National

Intitute of Audiovisual) who keeps everything taped in audio or video for

state TV and radio. I was told that the tapes pf Antibes' 65 concerts have

diseappered. But offical video tapes of Averty's concert recordings were

published under the name JAZZ AVERTY, each cassette being named by a letter

of the name. On one of them there is a short footage of Coltrane playing in

Antibes. Others musicians on this video are Sidney Bechet, Claude Bolling,

Don Byas. I have this video but it is in SECAM format, the french TV System

format. I don't have this tape right now, so I can't give the actual

informations, but Antibes video recordings really exists.

Guy Reynard

[king ubu]

Video of the two tunes mentioned in the first post is widely circulated.