What's This "Soul Bossa" Thing Going On In Atlanta?

[JSngry]

http://www.dustygroove.com/nusoulcd.htm#430455

Various -- Soul Com Bossa -- Compiled By Khari Simmons . . . CD . . . $24.99 (Item: 430455)

P-Vine (Japan), 2006

Soul music with a bossa nova spirit -- a really unique little collection put together by Khari Simmons, with a sound that's similar to her own recent album with Julie Dexter! The bossa here isn't bossa in the conventional Brazilian sense -- but more a bossa-inspired love of space and grace, one that pushes the music here away from the usual beats n keys mode that can sometimes bog a modern soul album down in cliches and over-used patterns of sound. Instead, the groove here is loose, free, and very jazzy -- a really unique new sound that's presented perfectly by Khari along with many of her contemporaries on the Atlanta scene! Titles include "If You" by Venus 7, "50/50 Love (Jiva rmx)" by Anthony David with Julie Dexter, "Rush Hour (Kemetic Just mix)" by Alex Lattimore, "Thank You" by Avery Sunshine, "Ever After (Jiva rmx)" by Seek, "I See Colors" by Julie Dexter, "I Realized (Twilight Bossa mix)" by Jiva, and "Sun Don't Rain" by Paige Lackey Martin.

Yeah, I know it's Dusty Groove, so the hype might be in, and yeah, I know that any local "scene" might come down to 2 or 3 people making CDs on a shoestring, but still - what gives?

[Jim R]

I dunno... I wouldn't even begin to think about criticizing the music (or the inspiration behind it, actually), because I haven't heard it, but... I guess I'm bothered by the tendency for people to borrow and rather carelessly throw around musical terminology. Can we please hold on to some of our history, and be true to it? I mean, look at what's being labeled as "R&B" these days. I can appreciate the props (assuming that's the basis for it) for "Bossa" in a case like this, but if there's no actual, recognizable bossa element to be found in this music, I would have thought it might have been better to come up with another title, still indicating the "space and grace" concept while not misleading anybody and adding to the confusion and dilution of meaning that goes on these days.

I know, a long rant for such a trivial offense (as I see it, anyway). -_-

Oh, btw, does anybody else feel clueless about wtf this music might sound like? "Away from the usual beats n keys mode"? You mean... I mean... is this literally "free" as in "free jazz", yet with a "bossa nova spirit"? Sorry, I'm confused. "Space & Grace"...? hmmm... okay, that was clear...

[JSngry]

Can we please hold on to some of our history, and be true to it?

By doing what?

[rostasi]

You may want to check for some samples of the Moon Bossa disc.

Khari Simmons was a bass player with India Arie, but that's all I can say about him.

Imagine Sergio Mendes style that mixes a little modern soul with just a tinge of light hip-hop.

Deep Brazilian has been really heavy in Japan for a long time - played a lot in coffee shops -

so maybe this is the P-Vine connection here.

[Jim R]

Can we please hold on to some of our history, and be true to it?

By doing what?

By trying to correctly (accurately, appropriately... take your pick) apply musical terms that have become well-established over a long period of time, and not throw them around recklessly in cases where they don't really apply. This may be a bit vague (moreso to people who know little of music history, I would think), subjective to some extent, and I realize it's idealistic, but I think it's worth saying anyway. So, again, I'm not objecting to the non-traditional music-making in this case... just the idea that "bossa" is being used here where it doesn't seem to apply, except via some vague connection ("space and grace"). Maybe I'll be proven wrong, but going by DG's description only, I got the sense that I have a valid complaint... trivial though it may be.

[Jim R]

Deep Brazilian has been really heavy in Japan for a long time - played a lot in coffee shops -

so maybe this is the P-Vine connection here.

What's "Deep Brazilian"?

[rostasi]

Bossa is a rhythm...and it's also a feel.

If you stick with the older traditional bossa

of the late 50's/early 60's, with a

rediscovery for young folks who weren't even

around during that time, then you have them

listening to a deep (read: established or roots) bossa.

To extend that side to side bossa style into something that

adds even more grace and space (either physically in using less instrumentation

or musically thru even slower sensuality), then you've got an extended form.

After all, bossa is an open term anyway in Brazil.

[Jim R]

Bossa is a rhythm...and it's also a feel.

Thank you... I'm not very familiar with Bossa Nova. (little joke there... hopefully it's self-explanatory )

If you stick with the older traditional bossa

of the late 50's/early 60's, with a

rediscovery for young folks who weren't even

around during that time, then you have them

listening to a deep (read: established or roots) bossa.

I almost feel like I understand that... (almost), but... who said so? And I'll ask you again- what's "Deep Brazilian"?

To extend that side to side bossa style into something that

adds even more grace and space (either physically in using less instrumentation

or musically thru even slower sensuality), then you've got an extended form.

??? Are you serious? Explain to me how you're adding "grace" (go ahead and define that while you're at it) and space. Are you trying to tell me that Bossa Nova only existed originally (or even in the decades that immediately followed) with a certain amount of "grace", a certain amount of "space", a certain standard instrumentation, and a certain tempo? I hope you're not trying to tell me that, but it sounds like it. If instead you're getting at something more specific in terms of a "new form", then by all means- be more specific.

After all, bossa is an open term anyway in Brazil.

Yeah, and by 2006 "Rhythm and Blues" has become an open term in the U.S. (depends who you ask, right?). But really, I know Bossa Nova is more than just a certain type of rhythm, and one can legitimately extend the meaning of the term to encompass things that go beyond having strictly musical elements (Jobim himself said something to the effect that Japan is like Bossa Nova- it's peaceful... elegant...). At any rate, I don't wish to see this term (or any other term, for that matter) getting more "open" than it has to be- especially when describing the actual music. That's what prompted me to post here in the first place.

And Rod, I'm sorry if any of this comes across as hostile... I guess I'm just entering a pet peeve zone here (and I'll gladly listen to any contrary arguments).

[Jim Alfredson]

Doesn't the word "bossa" just mean rhythm or beat? So Soul Bossa might not have anything to do with Bossa Nova (which I always read was translated as "new beat") but is just using the word "bossa" the way people use the word "rhythm"?

[Jim R]

Doesn't the word "bossa" just mean rhythm or beat? So Soul Bossa might not have anything to do with Bossa Nova (which I always read was translated as "new beat") but is just using the word "bossa" the way people use the word "rhythm"?

I guess we'd have to ask the artists, but DG began the description with "Soul music with a Bossa Nova spirit". When they explained that the "spirit" was "space and grace", I began to scratch my head. Not only is that vague, aren't there a number of musical forms that feature "space and grace"? Miles in the 50's? Ravel? So, why opt to use the term "Bossa" (which of course is most closely associated with a Brazilian musical form that's well-established)? Because the artists wanted to give props to Bossa Nova? Because "Soul Com Bossa" had a catchy sound to it?

Or, maybe DG screwed up the description of this music. Don't know, and I'm beginning to not really care (before this gets any more confusing).

[JSngry]

Imagine Sergio Mendes style that mixes a little modern soul with just a tinge of light hip-hop.

This makes perfect sense to me.

[andybleaden]

i had bossa nova soul samba by Ike Quebec

Was he a visionary or what...he is ahead of these new guys with added nova AND samba - anything less would be like mp3 ripped at 45k yuk!

[clifford_thornton]

Dusty Groove's descriptions do more harm than good, I would say. Try and find a few samples online and go from there...

[JSngry]

Thing is, I'm to the point where I can understand a lot the DG lingo. "beats n keys" makes sense to me.

[clifford_thornton]

Thing is, I'm to the point where I can understand a lot the DG lingo. "beats n keys" makes sense to me.

Are you sure you want to be at the point where you understand DG descriptions?

[clifford_thornton]

"Not really free in the conventional sense -- but "free" with a seminal NY "New Thing" vibe that has a lot of post-ESP feel, never too hippy-dippy for us, but still very spiritual and soulful at the same time! The sax is kinda similar to the things ___ was working on towards the end of the '60s, but with a raw funky side that we know Dusty fans will love! (original pressing with a cut corner and both seams almost completely split. Vinyl has a fair number of marks, but you hardly ever see this one on wax. Trust us!)"

Make sense to you?

Edited August 16, 2006 by clifford_thornton

[Jim R]

"Not really free in the conventional sense -- but "free" with a seminal NY "New Thing" vibe that has a lot of post-ESP feel, never too hippy-dippy for us, but still very spiritual and soulful at the same time! The sax is kinda similar to the things ___ was working on towards the end of the '60s, but with a raw funky side that we know Dusty fans will love! (original pressing with a cut corner and both seams almost completely split. Vinyl has a fair number of marks, but you hardly ever see this one on wax. Trust us!)"

Make sense to you?

I don't know who you're asking, but speaking for myself, I think I'd rather watch a DG employee doing a dance about architecture... and I have a feeling I may be completely serious.

[JSngry]

"Not really free in the conventional sense -- but "free" with a seminal NY "New Thing" vibe that has a lot of post-ESP feel, never too hippy-dippy for us, but still very spiritual and soulful at the same time! The sax is kinda similar to the things ___ was working on towards the end of the '60s, but with a raw funky side that we know Dusty fans will love! (original pressing with a cut corner and both seams almost completely split. Vinyl has a fair number of marks, but you hardly ever see this one on wax. Trust us!)"

Make sense to you?

Yeah. Doesn't mean that I don't think it's unnecessarily convoluted and/or silly, but yeah, having shopped at DG for a few years now, it makes sense to me.

But you left out too many exclamation points.

[DukeCity]

From their website, here's a description of an Atlanta-based group called Jiva that Khari is involved with:

link

"About Jiva

Jiva fuses the modern movement of soul music with the seductive rhythm and character of Bossa nova while still keeping you moving on the dance floor. Many people remark on the cross pollenization of Sergio Mendes & Brasil 66/77 with the best of Masters at Work. Jiva is led by current India.Arie Bassist Khari Cabral, who is the bandleader and main producer of the band.

The vocal section consists of some of the best of the Atlanta Soul scene's most talented singers. Three female vocalists (Rhonda Thomas, Paige Lackey-Martin, and Chanda McKnight) bring a heavenly blend to the music along with the male vocalist (Alex Lattimore). Khari is joined by India.Arie band mate and rhythmic genius Forrest Robinson. Completing the Rhodes driven rhythm section are keyboard greats Takana Miyamoto, a renowned young woman known for meticulous skill and composition, and Julius Speed, classic stylist reminiscent of Donald Fagen or Michael McDonald. Other Jiva band memebers include Ryan Waters on guitar, Nakayo on percussion and flute, Vinnie D’Agostino on saxophone and flute and Wes Funderburk on trombone.

Jiva has been amazing the crowds of the Atlanta Soul Scene for years, and now the world is beholding their awesome concerts. There has been much success in the dance music world with the surprise hit of the 2001 Giant Step release of 'Stars' and with the 2002 highly acclaimed 'Love Chooses Lovers'. Jiva is presently enjoying success with the first release from the full-length Giant Step album 'Sun & Moon'. The first hit single from this cd release, 'I Realized,’ B-sided with a Louie Vega remix of 'Stars' is now burning up the charts.

It is refreshing to hear a band that is stretching the boundary of what is considered modern soul. The return of Bossa Nova sees a unique interpretation with this Atlanta based Soul ensemble. Sophisticated arrangements, classic songwriting, and driving bass and drums make this band impossible to miss in this era of music."

You can hear samples of the tunes here:

JIVA

[JSngry]

Thanks!

I listened to the samples and definitely hear a "Bossa" influence on most of them. Overall, the Sergio Mendes (of the late-60s/early-mid 70s) reference seems to be the most apt. Can't say I'm "enthralled" by anything I heard, but I don't think there were any Louie Vega remixes avaible for sampling either.

Louie Vega, both individually and in tandem w/partner Kenny Dope - together known as Master at Work/MAW - has been responsible for some of the most rhytmically intricate & interesting dance music productions I've been encountering. Definitely a talent to take seriously. He's more than a little versed in traditional Salsa (his wife is Salsa singer India), and the way he brings that flavor to contemporary dance music is quite often more than a little interesting.

Also intersting, not so much musically but "sociologically" is how a group of African-Americans from Atlanta are taking the "easy listening" sounds of that era's Sergio Mendes & hearing it as "soul", reinterpreting it, and finding success with it in the dance underground. I myself always thought that Lani Hall had an incredibly sultry voice, and that the Mendes records of that time had an element of feeling (I'd not call it "Soul" per se, but that's probably because I'm of an age and time where "Soul" had a very specific musical/sociological meaning. But then again, that time has passed) that set them apart from being "merely" "easy listening". That there's an apparently global, cross-cultural group of young adults who are tapping into that element as being contemporarily relevant (and danceable) is a fascinating notion for me.

[DukeCity]

That there's an apparently global, cross-cultural group of young adults who are tapping into that element as being contemporarily relevant (and danceable) is a fascinating notion for me.

Which is exactly how da Bastids hold you in their thrall...

[Jim R]

"Frequently compared to Sergio Mendes BRASIL 66, JIVA has a bossa driven sophisticated sound that is rarely heard in modern dance music."

So, it appears from reading their site that the "bossa" connection is the similarity to Brasil '66 (which, as well all know was a candy-coated pop group that capitalized on the "craze", as it were). Let me get real for a moment here. If americans (who are at all serious about their music) still think Brasil '66 = "Bossa Nova", then they simply haven't bothered to explore further, which is kind of sad. These same folks are hip to Astrud, but not Joao. They know Edie Gorme, but not Nara Leao. They know about John Pizzarelli, but not Baden Powell. Naturally, they never miss an episode of Ramsey Lewis's "Masters of Jazz", or whatever it's called. Btw, has anybody here every visited the A&M board and read the topics about Bossa Nova? It basically boils down to Sergio Mendes worship (actually, Brasil '66, '77, etc worship, becuase few of those people know about Sergio's earlier work in Brasil).

Take Brasil '66, loosen it up a bit, add some modern instrumentation, modern soul singers, and mix up the beats, and what do you get? I don't know exactly, but it doesn't appeal to me very much (it's sort of pleasant in a smooth kind of way, but who needs that?).

"The return of Bossa Nova sees a unique interpretation with this Atlanta based Soul ensemble. Sophisticated arrangements, classic songwriting, and driving bass and drums make this band impossible to miss in this era of music."

Right... the "return of Bossa Nova" (Grandma, what BALLS you have!), which had of course completely disappeared for the past 40 years. "Classic songwriting"? Okay, I'm just going by the samples provided, but I just don't hear it. I hear a lot of stretching out on pleasant-enough vamps with some nice background sounds, but "classic songwriting"? Who's tootin' that horn? (no indication who wrote their "about" page).

These appear to be talented musicians, no doubt with a good following in their area. More power to them, as they say. NEXT!

[JSngry]

So, it appears from reading their site that the "bossa" connection is the similarity to Brasil '66 (which, as well all know was a candy-coated pop group that capitalized on the "craze", as it were).

A bit of an over-simplification, I think. Mendes had/has cred, and the "candy" was quite often quite high-quality.

Besides, Lani Hall's voice was (and maybe still is) an instrument not to be disregarded.

This whole notion that "pop" is intrinsically fluff is not one with which I can agree. It's through pop that a great deal of cultural assimilation occurs. Granted, that assimilation usually results in the weakening/alteration of the original "flavor", but then again - how else does one assimilate? We can legitmately bemoan the dilution of the original, but shouldn't we also take note of and give credit to/for the cultural breakthrough?

On the one hand, we bitch about how people don't know "the originals". On the other, when a taste (or more) of the original breaks through, we bitch about that. In the meantime, while we sit in our purist's corners (and I've got one with my name engraved in gold ) and bitch, the rest of the world continues to assimilate all these different things and moves on about its own affairs. It's always worked this way, and I doubt that it will ever be otherwise. Bottom line - there are infinitely moe options available in pop music now than there were 50 years ago. Whether or not they've always been put to good use is debatable, to put it mildly, but I don't think there's any arguing that their availability and their penetration into the "mass consciousness" is infinitely preferable to their not.

One more thing -

These same folks are hip to Astrud, but not Joao. They know Edie Gorme, but not Nara Leao. They know about John Pizzarelli, but not Baden Powell.

That's no doubt true of the "general audience", but I'd not be so quick as to assume it of the musicians. Plenty of young musicians have availed themselves of the ample supply of archival material available in the digital age, and have checked it out. That they choose to be "influenced" by it rather than studiously attempt to "replicate" it is to there credit, I think. Whether or not we Boomers approve of it (and in the case of the samples above, I remain superbly indifferent) is really not relevant to them, and to that, I say Right On. It's pop dance music, not a freakin' music history class. I didn't dance to my father's music when I was 24, and I would shudder if my kids danced to mine when they get to be 24.

Edited August 17, 2006 by JSngry

[Jim R]

So, it appears from reading their site that the "bossa" connection is the similarity to Brasil '66 (which, as well all know was a candy-coated pop group that capitalized on the "craze", as it were).

A bit of an over-simplification, I think. Mendes had/has cred, and the "candy" was quite often quite high-quality.

I didn't see (or hear) any evidence that Brasil '66 wasn't the primary influence for the bossa element (such as it is, which ain't much, imo). Brasil '66 was (and is) popular. It stands to reason that if they stand behind the info on their site, then I'm not sure how I'm over-simplifying it.

This whole notion that "pop" is intrinsically fluff is not one with which I can agree. It's through pop that a great deal of cultural assimilation occurs. Granted, that assimilation usually results in the weakening/alteration of the original "flavor", but then again - how else does one assimilate? We can legitmately bemoan the dilution of the original, but shouldn't we also take note of and give credit to/for the cultural breakthrough?

In this case, I'm not sure. Didn't brazilian music break through (albeit largely in other watered-down incarnations) well before Brasil '66 became popular? I'm no Brasil '66 scholar, so I'll just hang that one out there. Fwiw, I've never come across a Brasil '66 fan (in person or on the web) that showed much (if any) appreciation for the more pure/authentic/non-commercial forms of brazilian music that set the table for Brasil '66.

On the one hand, we bitch about how people don't know "the originals". On the other, when a taste (or more) of the original breaks through, we bitch about that. In the meantime, while we sit in our purist's corners (and I've got one with my name engraved in gold ) and bitch, the rest of the world continues to assimilate all these different things and moves on about its own affairs. It's always worked this way, and I doubt that it will ever be otherwise. Bottom line - there are infinitely moe options available in pop music now than there were 50 years ago. Whether or not they've always been put to good use is debatable, to put it mildly, but I don't think there's any arguing that their availability and their penetration into the "mass consciousness" is infinitely preferable to their not.

I hear you. My bitching here (although I've no doubt digressed from it at times) is not about somebody doing something new (and I don't even hear enough of a brazilian influence here to suggest that they're watering down or otherwise damaging the "original")- I'm frustrated by mis-labeling (that ignores historic musical developments and truths) and the kind of hype that may forever blind people to understanding the way music really evolved, and who was important and who wasn't. There may be more about this that bothers me, but that's the gist of it. Like I said above, more power to these musicians if they're creating sincerely, developing a following, and putting food on the table. I gots no problems with that, nor what young people are into (I'm not saying they should be listening to Joao Gilberto necessarily, but it would be cool if somebody at least told them who he was and is, and did so accurately).

These same folks are hip to Astrud, but not Joao. They know Edie Gorme, but not Nara Leao. They know about John Pizzarelli, but not Baden Powell.

That's no doubt true of the "general audience", but I'd not be so quick as to assume it of the musicians. Plenty of young musicians have availed themselves of the ample supply of archival material available in the digital age, and have checked it out. That they choose to be "influenced" by it rather than studiously attempt to "replicate" it is to there credit, I think.

Never said they should try to replicate it, Jim. And I see no evidence that anybody is giving any props to any brazilian artists other than Sergio Mendes; and I DO see evidence that they somehow feel that they represent the "return of Bossa Nova", which is completely absurd (even if they were playing Bossa Nova, they wouldn't represent "the return", dig?). Maybe I'm putting too much weight on the essays on their site, but hey... it's their site, so they're responsible for what's written there.

Whether or not we Boomers approve of it (and in the case of the samples above, I remain superbly indifferent) is really not relevant to them, and to that, I say Right On. It's pop dance music, not a freakin' music history class. I didn't dance to my father's music when I was 24, and I would shudder if my kids danced to mine when they get to be 24.

Again, I'm not disagreeing with that.

Edited August 17, 2006 by Jim R

[JSngry]

It wasn't the influence of Mendes that I was questioning. It was the seeming dismissal of Brasil 66/77 as inconseqential fluff.

Dude - you give props (and rightly so, imo) to Andy Williams. Brasil 66/77 is every bit as worthy, I think.