Grant Green: "Iron City"

[bertrand]

Interesting that the photo with Larry might be 6/17/66. Remember that Grant was at Left Bank on 7/31/66 with Vick, Patton and Hugh Walker. This would mean he really did go back and forth.

It was recorded, Uptown bought the tape and it is sitting in some storage unit in Montreal. I tried talking him into putting it out several times, but he didn't and now who knows what will happen...

Edited May 8, 2021 by bertrand

[robertoart]

7 minutes ago, Niko said:

I can see that story, too... at some point Green/Patton/Dixon were Lou Donaldson's rhythm section, but that was a bit earlier... and then from some point in 1965 onwards until some point in 1968 there was a relatively stable Patton/Green band, initially also with Dixon... but it doesn't look like this was a case of a rhythm section leaving their leader continuing as a trio... there probably was a less stable phase in between... we know less about Green's working bands before late 1965 when a Patton-Green band is first mentioned... the Indianapolis Star of 4 December 1964 advertises a Green Organ Trio with a completely different lineup (Jimmy Watson, org, Buck Jones, dr)

 

Yes it may have been a bit earlier, but Lou says he never took Grant Green on the road with him, whereas he says he did travel with John Patton. 

Could the Iron City organist be a mysterious 'third person' lol.

Another primary source of memory around this 65/66 era was Larry Coryell who also came to New York around this time and talks of memories of seeing Grant Green and Larry Young gigs. Although like Lonnie Smith's recollections these are in the New York area. Coryell mentions hearing live versions of I Want To Hold Your Hand with this trio. 

[Niko]

speaking of cool free resources, this here is a free newspaper archive for Indiana, including the Indianapolis recorder... the same lineup with Watson and Clarke is advertised there once more on February 6 1965... but on February 20 1965, the lineup has changed, JC Moses has joined the band and (somewhat surprisingly) Jane Getz is playing the piano in the Grant Green Trio...

here is one more 31 December 1966, almost two years later...

 

what this suggests to me is that there was a period of JC Moses / Green / Young either before ore (more likely given Young's travel to Europe) after the lineup JC Moses / Green / Getz...

Edited May 8, 2021 by Niko

[robertoart]

14 minutes ago, Niko said:

speaking of cool free resources, this here is a free newspaper archive for Indiana, including the Indianapolis recorder... the same lineup with Watson and Clarke is advertised there once more on February 6 1965... but on February 20 1965, the lineup has changed, JC Moses has joined the band and (somewhat surprisingly) Jane Getz is playing the piano in the Grant Green Trio...

here is one more 31 December 1966, almost two years later...

 

what this suggests to me is that there was a period of JC Moses / Green / Young either before ore (more likely given Young's travel to Europe) after the lineup JC Moses / Green / Getz...

Yes, Peter Leitch mentions in the liner notes to the King Funk cd reissue seeing the Green, Patton, Jarvis trio in Canada, but he gets the time frame mixed up I think, I seem to recall he puts it around late Sixties. 

Getz mentions her experience of those gigs in a memoir, I haven't returned to it since originally reading it, unsure if any timeframe is defined though. 

Edited May 8, 2021 by robertoart

[Niko]

Getz memories could very interesting... even just knowing how many months it was... of course, if there was like a constant back and forth, then it's very hard to read anything into lineup changes... but if we believe in some continuity then it seems clear the Young/Green/Moses lineup must be after Getz/Green/Moses of 20 February 1965 (when did LY return from Europe?). So far I have two Green gigs  at the Hurricane Bar

Grant Green (Guitarist on the Prestige Label, 18 January 1965)
Grant Green Organ Trio featuring John Patton, Ben Dixon (15 November 1965)

one is too early, the other too late because Patton and Dixon are already announced... which would suggest that there was some additional Green Gig in Pittsburgh, before DIxon replaced JC Moses on drums, but after Larry Young replaced Jane Getz at the keyboard... some time between February and Novermber. If we read the band on King Funk (26 May, Green Young Dixon) as a working band, then the photograph would have been made between 20 February and 26 May 1965. A Green Young Moses version of Iron City would also have been recorded in that time frame... a Green Young Dixon version could be recorded between 26 May and some point before mid November... if we believe in continuity...

[Niko]

like Dan said above, these search functions are pretty good but not perfect... in this case, it took a search for the phrase "happy house"in 1965 Pennsylvania newspapers to find the (or a) missing Green Gig at the Hurricane Bar in mid 1965... this here is from the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette of 28 June 1965

no line up given, four weeks after the recording of Majesty King Funk, four months after the Getz/Green/Moses gig, four months before the first documentation of a Green/Patton band, six weeks before those rejected Verve sessions... if the photograph is from here, this would suggest that JC Moses stayed in the touring band and just did not play on the album... why not...and we don't know about the organ player but we do know that Green had troubles finding one earlier that year and that he had just recorded with Larry Young... for the moment, I claim that the both recording of Iron City and the photo belong to this gig, which would make the band Green/Young/Moses

[bertrand]

I think you found the Iron City gig, but it is Ben Dixon on drums. Or is that up in the air also?

[Niko]

18 minutes ago, bertrand said:

I think you found the Iron City gig, but it is Ben Dixon on drums. Or is that up in the air also?

well, George Heid seems to claim that the picture with JC Moses was taken at a gig in Pittsburgh... so if the 28 June gig is the Iron City gig and it involves Dixon then we need an additional Pittsburgh gig with Moses & Young for the picture in the same time span, maybe somewhat earlier... could also be that Dixon did a few days and then Moses took over or the other way around... we know that the Watson/Clark/Green band was advertised in Indianapolis on December 4 and February 6. On February 20, the same place advertised the Getz/Green/Moses band... there are different stories which fit this pattern... but most of them would involve Watson/Clark/Green still showing up on December 4 and Getz/Green/Moses existing at some point before February 20 ... and then Young returning from Paris, recording Majesty King Funk with Dixon and Green in May... in November the band is announced as Green/Patton/Dixon...

 

Edited May 8, 2021 by Niko

[bertrand]

2 hours ago, robertoart said:

Yes it may have been a bit earlier, but Lou says he never took Grant Green on the road with him, whereas he says he did travel with John Patton. 

Could the Iron City organist be a mysterious 'third person' lol.

Another primary source of memory around this 65/66 era was Larry Coryell who also came to New York around this time and talks of memories of seeing Grant Green and Larry Young gigs. Although like Lonnie Smith's recollections these are in the New York area. Coryell mentions hearing live versions of I Want To Hold Your Hand with this trio. 

Yes, I always thought it was Jack McDuff LOL.

Logically, they would have played the Beatles tune in support of the album, so that suggests Green and Young playing together in the summer of 1965. As I pointed out though, Grant Left Blue Note almost overnight after the Hold Your Hand record (3/31/65) since he made King Funk on  5/26/65. The Blue Note record must have been a 'last fulfillment before the contract ends' kind of deal. Would Verve had wanted him to plug a Blue Note album on gigs? They were probably not paying attention.

The issue of the date is not just an academic exercise. If the Iron City tape had just turned up yesterday, which label would need to give clearance? If it was before 3/31/65 (as Travis Klein suggests) then it is Blue Note. After that it is Verve for a while, but that contract ended at some point. Does Grant appear as 'courtesy of' on any sideman date between his two Blue Note leader stints? If it is really 1967 as Cobblestone claimed, then no clearance was needed. But maybe they just claimed that date to bypass Blue Note or Verve...

The issue of contracts fascinates me. If a recording turns up, how does one know if there was an enforceable contract in action on the day of the recording. This Grant situation would really be a test. Let's say a recording turns up of Grant that can be 100% guaranteed to have been made on 4/15/65. Who needs to give clearance? Blue Note or Verve? What if it is released anyway and one of the labels takes action. They would need to produce an authentic contract with Grant's signature. Does Blue Note have an archive of all the contracts from back in those days? I doubt Verve does - they apparently can't even find the tapes from the later Green sessions.

Another example: I was given a lo-fi Lee Morgan recording from November 1971 and asked if a label could be interested. I assumed Blue Note but then realized that his last leader/sideman date for Blue Note was before that, so it was THEORETICALLY possible that his contract had ended and not been renewed, which I knew was highly unlikely. Then I saw that Lee is listed as 'courtesy of Blue Note' on the Charles Earland record so that was proof enough for me and I made Blue Note aware of it thought Zev Feldman, who is apparently now their go-to guy now - no answer yet, but it is very lo-fi, not holding my breath. If it was a no but another label was interested in putting it out at least as download (which is really the solution here), they would need clearance from Blue Note. If they bypass Blue Note, then they could get sued. But does Blue Note have a contract to produce? Is the note on the Earland record enough proof? There is one other clue that I am not sure I am allowed to disclose yet, but it is weaker than the Earland angle.

Going back to Grant - if Uptown had put out the 7/31/66 Left Bank date, would they have needed clearance from a label? My hunch is no, we have no reason to believe Grant was under contract with anyone. It seems it was really more Patton's gig in support of Got A Good Thing Goin', but I guess they wanted Grant because he was more of a name. Uptown would not have cared anyway - he put out the Duke Pearson big band date from 4/27/69, and Duke was still doing leader dates for Blue Note after that, although not the big band, but I am sure it was one contract covering any configurations.

 

 

[Niko]

Contracts... would be interesting to know how these were designed... and, e.g., whether artists actually had incentives to support sales of their BN albums or whether they played their hit tunes simply because that's what the audience wanted... I've also been wondering whether the ideas of playing Go Down Moses and displaying Feelin the Spirit at that gig were some type of running gag about JC Moses last name...

Edited May 8, 2021 by Niko

[mjzee]

I agree, contracts are interesting.  Re the existence of a Verve contract, it could have just been a one-off (or two-off) agreement.  I think usually for an exclusive contract, it requires a certain number of recordings, regardless of how long it takes (remember that Herman Lubinsky wouldn't release Wilbur Harden, and Orren Keepnews joked that he signed Sonny Rollins to a standard contract for Milestone, knowing full well how long it would take him to fulfill it), so if Verve had Green to an exclusive contract, he would have had to fulfill it after he came back on the scene (unless Verve released him).  Verve seemed to be doing a lot of those one-off dates at that time, such as the Donald Byrd "Up!".  

Let's not overlook that it might have been a pick-up organist for the Iron City date.  That would explain why the playing is not very distinguished.  Almost definitely, Buck Jones and Jimmy Watson were local Indy guys.

 

Edited May 8, 2021 by mjzee

[bertrand]

49 minutes ago, Niko said:

Contracts... would be interesting to know how these were designed... and, e.g., whether artists actually had incentives to support sales of their BN albums or whether they played their hit tunes simply because that's what the audience wanted... I've also been wondering whether the ideas of playing Go Down Moses and displaying Feelin the Spirit at that gig were some type of running gag about JC Moses last name...

Anything is possible! I still think it is Ben Dixon on drums on Iron City - remember, he and I discussed the session the one time I met him. He said it was not Patton, he never said it was not him on drums. I forget how it came up, maybe I mentioned it because I had just bought the 32Jazz CD.

Could the unissued Verve Grant Green session be hiding here? I just sent an inquiry via Ask A Librarian. Dixon must be on the 8/5/65 date since they do his tune 'Fat Judy':

Universal Music Group Donates Over 200,000 Master Recordings to the Library of Congress | Library of Congress (loc.gov)

I have a lot of ideas about creating a mega jazz-research website to document all of these kinds of findings. I have tons of ideas, but chronologies such as the ones below are examples of something that can be housed on a website. I will start a separate thread about my ideas in the near future. Chronologies for artist such as Booker Little, Herbie Nichols, Tina Brooks, Larry Young etc. could be established and of course we already have elements for a Grant Green chronology. A mega Blue Note records history could be built from here ad well.

I started something for Duke Pearson on Facebook (see below) inspired by a Wes Montgomery page (see below) to which my good friend Steve Herberman contributed greatly. Steve is not only an AMAZING guitarist (master of the 7-string) but also an ace jazz researcher.

The idea of the website is motivated by the fact that:

1) Print books are a dying form, regrettably (where is the 1,000-page Blue Note book?)

2) The internet is a 'living thing' and new data can be added every day. In fact, I conceive this as a collaborative effort, any serious researcher can be part of it. I can't do this alone.

Art Blakey Chronology (and the Jazz Messengers) (jazzmf.com)

https://www.press.umich.edu/132323/delightfulee/?s=supplemental_materials

(5) Duke Pearson Research | Facebook

(5) Wes Montgomery Research | Facebook

 

 

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Niko said:

well, George Heid seems to claim that the picture with JC Moses was taken at a gig in Pittsburgh... so if the 28 June gig is the Iron City gig and it involves Dixon then we need an additional Pittsburgh gig with Moses & Young for the picture in the same time span, maybe somewhat earlier... could also be that Dixon did a few days and then Moses took over or the other way around... we know that the Watson/Clark/Green band was advertised in Indianapolis on December 4 and February 6. On February 20, the same place advertised the Getz/Green/Moses band... there are different stories which fit this pattern... but most of them would involve Watson/Clark/Green still showing up on December 4 and Getz/Green/Moses existing at some point before February 20 ... and then Young returning from Paris, recording Majesty King Funk with Dixon and Green in May... in November the band is announced as Green/Patton/Dixon...

 

Young was back from Paris by 3/31/65 for the Hold Your Hand record.

BTW, a recording was made at the Chat Qui Peche with Young, Shaw etc. Does it still exist and who would have it? More on that later...

33 minutes ago, mjzee said:

I agree, contracts are interesting.  Re the existence of a Verve contract, it could have just been a one-off (or two-off) agreement.  I think usually for an exclusive contract, it requires a certain number of recordings, regardless of how long it takes (remember that Herman Lubinsky wouldn't release Wilbur Harden, and Orren Keepnews joked that he signed Sonny Rollins to a standard contract for Milestone, knowing full well how long it would take him to fulfill it), so if Verve had Green to an exclusive contract, he would have had to fulfill it after he came back on the scene (unless Verve released him).  Verve seemed to be doing a lot of those one-off dates at that time, such as the Donald Byrd "Up!".  

Let's not overlook that it might have been a pick-up organist for the Iron City date.  That would explain why the playing is not very distinguished.  Almost definitely, Buck Jones and Jimmy Watson were local Indy guys.

 

Man, this thread is exploding! On the topic of Wilbur Harden...The notes to the 2-CD set by Keepnews say he was trying to come back to Savoy later (1966) and even sent sheet music in which, at the time Keepnews wrote the notes, were apparently readily available for research in some sort of Savoy archive. Savoy in under Concord now, right? 'nuff said... 

Edited May 8, 2021 by bertrand

[Niko]

I've also been wondering what a good format for writing up my findings might be, and was similarly drawn to Michael Fitzgerald's Art Blakey chronology or a similar format... my focus has been more on understanding biographies than on covering artists that have many fans... but I know quite a bit by now about drummer Chuck Thompson, alto player Kirtland Bradford (Lunceford's lead alto after Willie Smith)  and their family backgrounds etc. and should really wrap up these projects if I have the time (If anybody knows anything about Chuck Thompson between the summer of 1960 and his death in 1982, I'd be very very  interested btw). So I'd definitely be interested in something like you describe....

[JSngry]

If you're trading a record date for dope money, who pays the band? How, cash? No union papers?

[bertrand]

8 minutes ago, JSngry said:

If you're trading a record date for dope money, who pays the band? How, cash? No union papers?

Travis Klein seems to suggest he paid for the tape and sold it later. So I guess he paid the band.

[JSngry]

Ok, so who did he pay?

[bertrand]

31 minutes ago, Niko said:

I've also been wondering what a good format for writing up my findings might be, and was similarly drawn to Michael Fitzgerald's Art Blakey chronology or a similar format... my focus has been more on understanding biographies than on covering artists that have many fans... but I know quite a bit by now about drummer Chuck Thompson, alto player Kirtland Bradford (Lunceford's lead alto after Willie Smith)  and their family backgrounds etc. and should really wrap up these projects if I have the time (If anybody knows anything about Chuck Thompson between the summer of 1960 and his death in 1982, I'd be very very  interested btw). So I'd definitely be interested in something like you describe....

The idea are coming in my head, but I still need to get organized.

I am having trouble with the Downbeat archive. It covers 1937-2014, but there are only two results for Larry Young???

Just now, JSngry said:

Ok, so who did he pay?

I am guessing Grant. I can try to ask him...

[JSngry]

So Grant is getting paid to buy dope and the band trusts him to pay them first? 

[Niko]

Re the Downbeat Archive: the freely accessible part currently stops at the end of 1961... No idea what the status of the remaining issues is... With that in mind 2 hits for Larry Young may we'll be correct

[bertrand]

Just now, Niko said:

Re the Downbeat Archive: the freely accessible part currently stops at the end of 1961... No idea what the status of the remaining issues is... With that in mind 2 hits for Larry Young may we'll be correct

I see that now - you had mentioned 1961, but the header says 2014. Can you get past 1961 by paying? Maybe they are still digitizing.

2 minutes ago, JSngry said:

So Grant is getting paid to buy dope and the band trusts him to pay them first? 

Another hole in the story, I agree.

The Pittsburgh Music Hall Of Fame | Facebook

[JSngry]

Mr. Klein surely paid cash, and unless Grant was buying dope for the band, he probably paid the other two on the spot. So who did he pay, besides Grant?

It was either a scab session or else there would be a Union contract on file. Considering the circumstances, a scab session seems very likely. So...

Kinda surprised that somebody would be so open about paying for a scab session with dope money. Most people at least try to create a semblance of a  cover!

Or maybe the dope was already there and nobody got paid. That shit happens too. In that case, paying anybody would be the cover!

[bertrand]

Let's pretend it was recorded on 1/18/65 and there was a union contract. Are you suggesting said contract could be located?

I am sure it was a scab session, though. I agree that it would have been preferable to use code language, e.g. 'Grant needed some walking around money'. Where he was walking to with the money is none of my business.

[JSngry]

You can always check with the local AFM. 50/50 shot at best that they still have records, but nothing ventured, etc.

This Klein guy either knows more or less than he's letting on. It's a good "story" but in order to take it seriously as history, there's...mechanics involved  You don't go from getting a Grant Needs Dope Money call to And Now It's A Classic without there being some tangible specifics happening in between.

[bertrand]

What a laugh it would be if AFM had the contracts yet Verve can't find the tapes of the August 1965 session.

I totally agree there are holes in the story and maybe he is holding back. I am slowly digging on Facebook but I have to finesse it. Hopefully he will unwittingly drop a clue. I am still stuck on the fact that he said he wrote 'Patton' but can't say who was sitting behind the organ when he showed up for the tail-end of the session, just in time to pick the song title.

Travis:  When we did the session the listing of musicians had John Patton on organ. I could be wrong but that's how I remember it. I sold the master to Joe Fields when he was sales manager at Prestige and he put it out on Cobblestone when he went to work for Buddah. I find it interesting that this album has held up as I considered it less than the Blue Notes and the first Verve album.

Me: Travis Klein, interesting. Did you attend the recording session at all? It would be ideal to find newspaper ads listing the gig at the Hurricane Lounge, maybe they can help pin down the date and the organist. Although I now believe it is Larry, I would not have questioned it had Ben Dixon not suggested it to me, and more importantly Patton had told his friend it was not him. Dixon was not basing his suggestion on his recollection of the session, I think, but because he listened to the CD. I agree the session holds up well. I prefer it to the Verve session. I wish we could hear the uinssued Verve session...

Travis:  I don't remember the date in 1965 but every year when that date comes up I post it my page. I came to the session when it was wrapping up. They didn't have a title for one song so I suggested "Iron City" since we were in Pittsburgh.

Me:  Travis Klein, and the person who got paid for the session was Grant, I guess? It seems the date is 1/18/65, in which case it has to be Patton, Young was still in Paris.

And this is on the Pittsburgh Music Hall of Fame page, posted by Travis:

On this date in Pittsburgh music history, January 18, 1965, Grant Green with his trio, Ben Dixon on drums and the monster "Big" John Patton on Hammond B-3 organ, appeared at the Hurricane Lounge in the 1500 block of Center Avenue on the Hill. One of the biggest thrills in my life happened that day. Billy Driscoll, who was managing Gene Ludwig at the time, came up to our store at 1811 Center and told me that Grant needed money to cop drugs and he would be willing to trade a recording session for the money.

I immediately called down to Gateway Studios, owned by the the Shapiro's of National Record Mart and located above their main location at 234 Forbes Avenue to arrange for the recording session. The songs on the album are "Samba de Orpheus", "Old Man Moses" (Let My People Go), "High Heeled Sneakers", "Motherless Child", "Work Song" and an untitled number that I named "Iron City" and became the name of the album.

I never thought that this album was up to level of his work on Blue Note or Verve but the Jazz Traditions channel of Dish Satelite TV (which is programmed by Bo White at Muzak) plays four of the tracks almost daily. It has held up all of these years and contributed to the legacy of Jazz's most under-rated guitarist. Charlie Apicella has even named his group, Iron City, after this album.

Treat yourself by checking out some of his other work on You Tube, especially, Idle Moments and Jean de Fleur.

 

 

 

 

[JSngry]

Omg...Gene Ludwig?