Grant Green: "Iron City"

[Cliff Englewood]

Just got this one recently, on some dodgy Label, I like it, but would like to know if anyone out there has definitive information on it, i.e. when and where was it recorded and, the real question, is it Patton or Young?

[kh1958]

Just got this one recently, on some dodgy Label, I like it, but would like to know if anyone out there has definitive information on it, i.e. when and where was it recorded and, the real question, is it Patton or Young?

There is another thread on this topic, and the answer (indirectly from Big John Patton) is that it is Larry Young.

[JSngry]

Not only is it Larry Young, it's also John McLaughlin & Tony Williams!

They called it "Iron City" instead of Lifetime due to contractual obligations.

At least, that's what I read on AMG once.

[JSngry]

Sorry, I feel like lying today. Must be that time of the week...

[andybleaden]

that will teach me to read all the posts without running off downstairs to find the cd.....or thinking

We will get you back for that one........grrrrrr

[JSngry]

Seriously, our own Soul Stream reports that Patton himself declared to him that it was Young on this album. AFAIC, that seals the deal.

Now the real mystery is this - wtf is up w/the opening to "Work Song"?

[bertrand]

Mike Fitzgerald also had some problems with the intro to 'Work Song'. He thought a bar or two were missing, but I don't think so.

It's definitely screwed up the way he does it, but I counted and the meter seems right. He just plays the head 'funny' the first time around. Sort of like he does with 'Oleo'.

I could be wrong, but I think it's complete.

Dig the way Patton/Young gets into the 'Love Supreme' vamp on 'Old Man Moses'.

Bertrand.

[Soul Stream]

I don't know if I had said this before on this topic. But I also asked Ben Dixon, the only remaining survivor of the session who played organ just to get his recollection. "Larry Young!....Patton couldn't play like that!" At the time, I kind of took his statement as a slight slam on Big John, but....in retrospect I don't think he meant it like that.

[Cali]

Not only is Larry Young the organ player but "Old Man Moses" is actually the spiritual "Go Down Moses". Grant Green has another version of this song on FEELIN' THE SPIRIT.

[bertrand]

Yeah, I knew that - they were loose with the title as well as the personnel listing.

It was in a conversation with Dixon that I first got the inkling that Larry was the organist. He said something like: 'Someone needs to talk to [big] John - I think it sounds like Larry Young'. Note that he did not say: 'I remember this date very well - it was Larry Young, not John Patton'.

Bill Heid remembered that it was recorded in Pittsburgh (hence the title). He was categoric that it was Patton, not Young. And Heid knows his organists! Go figure...

Bertrand.

Edited August 10, 2006 by bertrand

[Soul Stream]

Yeah, I knew that - they were loose with the title as well as the personnel listing.

It was in a conversation with Dixon that I first got the inkling that Larry was the organist. He said something like: 'Someone needs to talk to [big] John - I think it sounds like Larry Young'. Note that he did not say: 'I remember this date very well - it was Larry Young, not John Patton'.

Bill Heid remembered that it was recorded in Pittsburgh (hence the title). He was categoric that it was Patton, not Young. And Heid knows his organists! Go figure...

Bertrand.

Yeah, I guess this controversy will continue on for all time. That said, as much as I respect Bill Heid as a Young dicsiple....I can't imagine he would listen to that recording and say it was Patton. Especially given that the albums Big John made before and after that session bear no resembleance at all to the playing on Iron City. John told me it wasn't him, and I think for anyone who knows Big John's playing on a musical level, they would quickly identify that. The best evidence we have is our ears I think at this point. That's why Bill Heid's take is surprising to me as he's obviously an expert on Young.

[bertrand]

I was very surprised as well!

All I know is, I put it in my Larry Young playlist in iTunes, not Big John Patton!

Bertrand.

[Rooster_Ties]

OK, I know we rehash this thing about once every two years or so on these boards. And in between times, I always forget the details.

How did Patton's name get on this date in the first place?? Assuming it is Young, what happened?

What's the back-story (again, probably, sorry) - ??

PS: My recent (2003) Savoy issue doesn't have a recording date (or none that jumped out at me just now when I looked). Do we even know these details? - or is this one of those dates we're luckly to pin down to just the year it was recorded?

Edited August 11, 2006 by Rooster_Ties

[bertrand]

I think 1965 was suggested as a recording year. I forget why.

Bertrand.

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

I WISH *ALL* ORGAN RECORDS LISTED BIG JOHN PATTON ON THEM

[bertrand]

I smell a photo-shop fest coming on.

Couw?

[Soulstation1]

i wonder if BJP cashed the checks??

[Rooster_Ties]

i wonder if BJP cashed the checks??

BJP didn't pen any of the tunes, so would there have been checks over the years?

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

i wonder if BJP cashed the checks??

BJP didn't pen any of the tunes, so would there have been checks over the years?

That's interesting. The title track doesn't have any writer listed. You'd expect at least that one of the three musicians' name would appear, particularly since it was titled because of having been recorded in Pittsburgh.

MG

[bertrand]

Plus it was used in a commercial (I forgot the product, probably a car). Maybe they used it BECAUSE they thought it was P.D.

Bertrand.

[couw]

I WISH *ALL* ORGAN RECORDS LISTED BIG JOHN PATTON ON THEM

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I WISH *ALL* ORGAN RECORDS LISTED BIG JOHN PATTON ON THEM

MG

[JSngry]

I WISH *ALL* ORGAN RECORDS LISTED BIG JOHN PATTON ON THEM

Up for a challenge?

[couw]

[JSngry]

That face needs changing, if you get my drift.