Coltrane in Chicago.

[Matthew]

Trying to get a handle on Coltrane in 1961 (very interesting year!) and I'm wondering if any tapes of his time in Chicago have been released. Only information I have been able to find is this:

John Coltrane Quintet

Donald Garrett (bcl, ts -1/5,10/12) John Coltrane (ss, ts) McCoy Tyner (p) Reggie Workman (b) Elvin Jones (d)

"Sutherland", Chicago, IL, October 10-15, 1961 private tape.

1. Liberia

2. Vierd Blues -

3. Equinox -

4. Greensleeves -

5. Bye Bye Blackbird -

6. My Favorite Things -

7. unknown title -

8. Cousin Mary -

9. unknown title -

10. I Want to Talk About You -

11. Greensleeves -

12. 2 unknown titles -

One of the interesting things about this date are the songs, a number of which are not played at the Village Vanguard only two weeks later. In fact, only Bye Bye Blackbird and Greensleeves show up on the VV set lists. It's clear that Dolphy's presence had a major influence on the set list which Donald Garrett did not have. Well, anyway, enough of my rambling on about 'Trane and 1961. So, have any of the Chicago songs seen the light of day? I can't find any record of it so far.

[erhodes]

Trying to get a handle on Coltrane in 1961 (very interesting year!) and I'm wondering if any tapes of his time in Chicago have been released. Only information I have been able to find is this:

John Coltrane Quintet

Donald Garrett (bcl, ts -1/5,10/12) John Coltrane (ss, ts) McCoy Tyner (p) Reggie Workman (b) Elvin Jones (d)

"Sutherland", Chicago, IL, October 10-15, 1961 private tape.

1. Liberia

2. Vierd Blues -

3. Equinox -

4. Greensleeves -

5. Bye Bye Blackbird -

6. My Favorite Things -

7. unknown title -

8. Cousin Mary -

9. unknown title -

10. I Want to Talk About You -

11. Greensleeves -

12. 2 unknown titles -

One of the interesting things about this date are the songs, a number of which are not played at the Village Vanguard only two weeks later. In fact, only Bye Bye Blackbird and Greensleeves show up on the VV set lists. It's clear that Dolphy's presence had a major influence on the set list which Donald Garrett did not have. Well, anyway, enough of my rambling on about 'Trane and 1961. So, have any of the Chicago songs seen the light of day? I can't find any record of it so far.

The recordings exist only as tapes and cdr's circulated among traders. AFAIK, none of them have been issued commerically. Also, the October date is wrong. The correct dates are March 1-4, 1961.

Ed Rhodes

[Dmitry]

I wonder if it was easy to find a replacement for Dolphy on a short notice. Anyone know if there's a story behind it? Was Garrett living in Chicago at that time and just happened to sit in on that gig?

He was on Kulu Se Mama and Om, right?

Edited August 7, 2006 by Dmitry

[Matthew]

Wow, wrong date? Now that interesting because that means Coltrane played the Chicago gig, then went to New York on March 20 and played with Miles on Someday My Prince Will Come number, with Teo coming on the 21. The date would also make sense because Dolphy was with 'Trane at the "Village Gate" gig for all of August; then the Newport Jazz Festival in CA. Yeah, it does make sense because the Village Vanguard cuts sound too put together not to have been worked out a lot before hand by the group. Thanks!

Dmitry: Garrett was on the two you mentioned as well as Live in Seattle, and Selflessness.

Edited August 7, 2006 by Matthew

[erhodes]

Wow, wrong date? Now that interesting because that means Coltrane played the Chicago gig, then went to New York on March 20 and played with Miles on Someday My Prince Will Come number, with Teo coming on the 21. The date would also make sense because Dolphy was with 'Trane at the "Village Gate" gig for all of August; then the Newport Jazz Festival in CA. Yeah, it does make sense because the Village Vanguard cuts sound too put together not to have been worked out a lot before hand by the group. Thanks!

Coltrane's chronology is being updated for the next edition of the Fujioka discography. The March dates are from Chris DeVito's research, which was published on the Coltrnae-l listserv several years ago and which supercede the dates in Porter's bio. Chris has developed a lot of new information for Coltrane's US itenerary. I would have to check the Summer-Fall dates re: what happened before the VV, something I won't be able to do for a couple of weeks. There are some issues with Dolphy's dates because of his departure for Europe. That seems to have happened in the middle of one of his club dates with Trane but I don't remember the details.

I assume you mean the Monterey Jazz Festival in CA. When I get home later in August I'll try to sort out some of the dates. March 1-4 for the Sutherland seems pretty tight, though.

Ed Rhodes

[erhodes]

I wonder if it was easy to find a replacement for Dolphy on a short notice. Anyone know if there's a story behind it? Was Garrett living in Chicago at that time and just happened to sit in on that gig?

He was on Kulu Se Mama and Om, right?

Garrety's presence has nothing to do with replacing Dolphy. Dolphy didn't become a regular member of Trane's band until several months after the Southerland date.

Garrett was a Chicago based musician in the early 60's. He said he was the one who gave Coltrane the idea of using two bass players. But, AFAIK, he was not playing bass clarinet with Trane at this time, so there is no issue of him replacing Dolphy in the front line or vice versa.

Trane didn't replace Dolphy in early '62 when Dolphy left the band. A lot of people, including Eric, sat in after that but the only other relatively permanent addition to the front line was Pharoah Sanders, who joined in late '65, more than a year after Dolphy's death.

Ed Rhodes

[Matthew]

Thanks for the help Ed, that clears up some of the questions I had about '61. According to Dave Wild's website that discography is suppossed to come out in September but I'm not holding my breath on that.

[Dmitry]

Thanks, Ed Rhodes!

[Guest youmustbe]

Unfortunatly, much of the the tapes are wrong pitch, and hard to listen to.

[Chuck Nessa]

Unfortunatly, much of the the tapes are wrong pitch, and hard to listen to.

Can be corrected if you have the money. Some folks here would find it hard to listen to then.

[erhodes]

Unfortunatly, much of the the tapes are wrong pitch, and hard to listen to.

Can be corrected if you have the money. Some folks here would find it hard to listen to then.

I'm not aware of any pitch problems and I've checked on some but not all of the tracks against commerically issued references. There are other audio problems, though, including edits, dropouts, and widely varying frequency balance between the different sessions. There's also a 5-6 minute fragement that turns out to be the same 2-3 minute fragment repeated a second time.

OTOH, the Sutherland material is the only substantial body of quartet performances between the Atlantic dates of Fall 1960 and the Village Vanguard material. It reveals some interesting things about the evolution of Coltrane's style and repertoire.

Ed Rhodes

[Guest youmustbe]

There is the Newport 1961 broadcast with Art Davis added on bass and Dolphy. That's how I heard Coltrane for the first time in August 1961 at Village Gate. Oddly a couple of nights later, it was just the trio and Trane came out half way thru the set with just a soprano and played Things for about 30 minutes!!

Was looking thru Raymond Ross' complete shoot of Trane at Half Note in 65. So many great photos, including Trane practicing between sets, with Alice at a table etc. They should all be put out.

Many other Half Note photos, including Art and the Messengers in 66 with Gary Bartz instead of Lee, along with Gilmore, Sproles, Hicks.

[Guest youmustbe]

BTW Ross took great shots of your favorite Hank Mobley at Five Spot 1966.

[erhodes]

There is the Newport 1961 broadcast with Art Davis added on bass and Dolphy. That's how I heard Coltrane for the first time in August 1961 at Village Gate.

The Newport date does indeed fall between the Atlantic sides and the VV. I suppose my point was that Newport has only three tracks whereas the Sutherland material takes up more than two cd's worth. A lot ore straight ahead tenor work on the Sutherland dates where you can hear Trane making the transition from what you hear on Atlantic to "Chasin' the Trane"...though maybe there's more to it than that.

Dolphy did not appear with Trane at Newport, though Davis did. And it is possible that Dolphy didn't complete the VG gig because his European travel interrupted it.

Ed Rhodes

[Guest youmustbe]

You're right...Dolphy is not on Newport, just checked my cd of the gig.