Looking for some help....

[catesta]

Pardon this out of the ordinary lengthy post from me.

As most of you know, last summer I relocated from Arizona back to New York. I can't begin to tell you how happy I am to be back. This is not to say that Phoenix did not have some things I liked and miss. Yeah I know I talked major trash about Arizona, but at times (mainly winter ) it's easy to miss.

Still, I have no regrets. For me it was the right thing to do. I maintain partial ownership in my business there and have begun the process of building what I hope becomes a successful business here.

Here is the issue. As you may or may not know, my girlfriend moved with me. She loves the east but is from the Pacific Northwest and lived most of her life in Arizona. Needless to say this was a very big adjustment for her. Even though she accompanied me on several trips, living in NY is a totally different animal. I think she has done very well and seems to like it. The problem is really with her kids. When we first moved both of her kids decided not to come and live with their father in California with the hopes of moving back to Phoenix. For the son the decision to live with his dad was the wring one and he moved to NY to live with us in November. The daughter followed a few months later after her dad said he was going to move to Utah for work.

Both of the kids have had a very difficult time adjusting to the culture here. They've made friends and hang out, but their grades have really suffered and on more than one instance they have voiced their dislike for New York. Go figure, they love going to Union Square and places like that to hang out and seem to dig this place at times. Still, they are forever on my girlfriend about how much they hate it here. This would not be much of big deal until they start talking about depression, skipping classes, etc.etc.. No drug use that we can see and still under all of this are okay, but they never let up.

Catrina is worried at this point that they're going to screw up the rest of the their high school years and hurt the chances to gain acceptance to a decent college. Not to mention she is tired of the aggravation.

So, she is thinking about moving them back to Arizona for the next several years so they will finish high school and graduate in Phoenix.

She feels an obligation to try and make them happy in hopes to improve not only the grades but the overall outlook.

Any opinions as to whether or not this is the right thing to do?

Part of me says this is giving in, but then that's easy for me to say since I'm not the parent.

We really don't know if this is the best move.

What I do know for sure is that this will not be an inexpensive venture. When we moved here I sold most of my furniture and a lot of shit. This time though, all of what we have here is going back to Phoenix. Then there is me. My plan as of now is to go back to Phoenix to help make the move and transition easier. My partners in Arizona are having some problems so me being around for a while will not be a bad thing. But when all is said and done, I plan on returning to New York within a couple of months. This in top of me having to make several trips in between since I have a business to run on the other side as well. Hopefully we will survive the long distance relationship. I really don't have the energy to start over. Plus she's a pretty good gal and so far has demonstrated an ability to put up with the bullshit when all others have failed.

One last thing. She thinks the kids need some counseling. I'm not usually a fan of that shit, but in this case I happen to agree. No way things in AZ can go back to what they were. Plus, they need to fully understand what it is their mother is doing for them. I mean this is going to be a major pain in the ass.

Oh, how I miss the days of beer and babes.

Thanks for listening.

Edited July 20, 2006 by catesta

[PHILLYQ]

It hasn't been a long time that the kids are in NYC, but in teenage time it seems forever to them. Teenagers can be very resilient, but change of this type(moving a long distance to a very different environment) can be difficult to deal with on top of all the other things that teenagers deal with. One thing I would check into is how school is for them- are they having social issues at school, such as being treated like outsiders, not being considered 'cool' enough, etc. That may be fueling their desire to go back to AZ.

Counseling may also help, as sometimes a third party without any stake may be able to clarify what's bugging whom and suggest ways to work it out. I'm not all that sure that moving them back to AZ will resolve everything for them in the way that they wish. That's my $0.02, and I hope things work out OK for all.

Edited July 21, 2006 by PHILLYQ

[Dan Gould]

As Philly says, kids are resilient. I'm not sure that giving in and moving back just for them is the right or necessary thing. Two questions: how old are they (is there time to get their shit together and do what is needed to go to a decent school or is the coming year make or break)? And when did you make the move last year? Starting the school year instead of being the new kids who arrived in the middle might help them complete the transition.

Or maybe the kids just resent you and the fact that they had to follow their mother's boyfriend to a place they didn't want to be has led to this sort of acting out and making trouble in order to force a change. Maybe if you had married her, they'd show a little more respect for their elder's decisions.

So maybe some counseling isn't a bad idea.

[catesta]

It hasn't been a long time that the kids are in NYC, but in teenage time it seems forever to them. Teenagers can be very resilient, but change of this type(moving a long distance to a very different environment) can be difficult to deal with on top of all the other things that teenagers deal with. One thing I would check into is how school is for them- are they having social issues at school, such as being treated like outsiders, not being considered 'cool' enough, etc. That may be fueling their desire to go back to AZ.

Counseling may also help, as sometimes a third party without any stake may be able to clarify what's bugging whom and suggest ways to work it out. I'm not all that sure that moving them back to AZ will resolve everything for them in the way that they wish. That's my $0.02, and I hope things work out OK for all.

Socially they seem to be fine. The daughter (16) is extremely popular for only being here for a few months. The son (just turned 15) is much less out going. He has friends but is not really in the popular crowd. His grades were actauuly above average the last scoring period. The girl failed four classes and is on summer school. They attend one of the better schools in NYC (Cardozo in Bayside) but it's huge (5000+ students) so that was a big change.

Counseling is a no brainer. And I'm with you, no way moving them back is going to change everything. It will though I think improve her grades some and make him feel more inlcuded.

[catesta]

As Philly says, kids are resilient. I'm not sure that giving in and moving back just for them is the right or necessary thing. Two questions: how old are they (is there time to get their shit together and do what is needed to go to a decent school or is the coming year make or break)? And when did you make the move last year? Starting the school year instead of being the new kids who arrived in the middle might help them complete the transition.

Or maybe the kids just resent you and the fact that they had to follow their mother's boyfriend to a place they didn't want to be has led to this sort of acting out and making trouble in order to force a change. Maybe if you had married her, they'd show a little more respect for their elder's decisions.

So maybe some counseling isn't a bad idea.

If it's resentment because of me than they cover it pretty good. We went through issues early on when Catrina and I first lived together back in Arizona. That what more a result of having kept the relationship a secret from them for so long.

Now I think they actually like me being around. I've been known to be fun at times.

I had no say in the matter when my parents moved us from New York to Cleveland, and Cleveland to Arizona. I had to deal and adjust, and I did. I'm afraid these are different times.

Honestly this may be as much for the well being of my lady as she thinks it will be for them.

[medjuck]

Teenage kids do complain and they rarely tell their parents if they think they ( the parents) made a right decision about something as important as moving. So I would discount that a bit. However if they are not doing as well in school as they did before and truly seem depressed (not just talking about how "depressed" they are) you should probably take some steps.

BTW You haven't made it clear (or I haven't understood) whether they say they want to move back to Arizona. Or have they just said they hate NY?

Edited July 21, 2006 by medjuck

[7/4]

Now I think they actually like me being around. I've been known to be fun at times.

Well, you do listen to all that hip music.

[JSngry]

Honestly this may be as much for the well being of my lady as she thinks it will be for them.

Is that what she is? Your "lady"?

If so, then I'd not get too involved in her kids' lives. Too much drama and shit. And you can, without too much effort find a good lady w/o all the baggage.

But if she's more than that, then...

[catesta]

Teenage kids do complain and they rarely tell their parents if they think they ( the parents) made a right decision about something as important as moving. So I would discount that a bit. However if they are not doing as well in school as they did before and truly seem depressed (not just talking about how "depressed" they are) you should probably take some steps.

BTW You haven't made it clear (or I haven't understood) whether they say they want to move back to Arizona. Or have they just said they hate NY?

We just finished having a discussion with them 15 minutes ago about the consideration of moving back to AZ.

We also presented them with options of moving to a little more rural of an area, say onto Long Island because they did mention it a few times.

They said it's not so much hating New York as much as feeling they can and will be better off back in Phoenix. I'm not surprised.

The depression thing is tough because right now I think that's a lot of words. I don't really see many if any signs of a true depression problem. That is where the counseling is coming into play. Someone needs to get to the bottom of it all. Their mom seems to think they both at times have given the signs of having some deeper issues.

[catesta]

Now I think they actually like me being around. I've been known to be fun at times.

Well, you do listen to all that hip music.

Depends on whom is giving the definition of hip.

[RonF]

Chris,

I'm not a fan of tough love. We had a daughter who was caught in an abusive, teen-dating relationship when she was 15. It was hell. Had to play it like a chess match - at the advice of counselors. Long story short, it was a shitty, hard road but she pulled out of it. Counseling works. That's what I want to say about that. I think it saved her...and us.

Here's my point. I don't think keeping the kids in New York is tough love. Families move - millions of them every year. My wife's father was a highway patrolman - they moved every 2 or 3 years. She attended 4 high schools. They got used to it. They survived. It doesn't seem like these kids have been there all that long. Everyone is different but if they're still bummed out, I suggest they will make the necessary adjustments before too long. BUT, if they think there's even half a shot at pressuring Mom to move back - they'll work it until it happens. Slam dunk. Just saying, "No. We're sorry, but we're not moving.", I repeat, is not tough love. Not in my book. It's just life. Good luck. Teen years can be a sonuvabitch.

[catesta]

Honestly this may be as much for the well being of my lady as she thinks it will be for them.

Is that what she is? Your "lady"?

If so, then I'd not get too involved in her kids' lives. Too much drama and shit. And you can, without too much effort find a good lady w/o all the baggage.

But if she's more than that, then...

Obviously she's more than that. Referring to her as "my lady" is something I just never seemed to stop doing.

Believe me when I say I never planned on getting involved with the kids and all the headaches. It just worked out that way. Not having any kids of my own it's been major experience and pain in the ass to say the least. I married when I was older and it didn't work as a result of my inability to adapt. With Catrina it's been different. She can and does tolerate the bullshit without giving me back more than I can handle. She's always there and that brings me comfort.

If this move goes through I will actually be around the kids much less as I will be spending a lot of time in New York on my own. So maybe that's a good thing, who knows. The plan would be for Catrina to move back here after the kids graduate.

[Soulstation1]

chris

maybe we can finally catch that baseball game

[catesta]

Chris,

I'm not a fan of tough love. We had a daughter who was caught in an abusive, teen-dating relationship when she was 15. It was hell. Had to play it like a chess match - at the advice of counselors. Long story short, it was a shitty, hard road but she pulled out of it. Counseling works. That's what I want to say about that. I think it saved her...and us.

Here's my point. I don't think keeping the kids in New York is tough love. Families move - millions of them every year. My wife's father was a highway patrolman - they moved every 2 or 3 years. She attended 4 high schools. They got used to it. They survived. It doesn't seem like these kids have been there all that long. Everyone is different but if they're still bummed out, I suggest they will make the necessary adjustments before too long. BUT, if they think there's even half a shot at pressuring Mom to move back - they'll work it until it happens. Slam dunk. Just saying, "No. We're sorry, but we're not moving.", I repeat, is not tough love. Not in my book. It's just life. Good luck. Teen years can be a sonuvabitch.

Thanks Ron.

That's really what my thoughts have been. You know, moving isn't really that big of a deal. They made friends here so what's the big deal?

It's really tough for me 'cause I'm not the parent. If we do it, I'm agreeing strictly for the reason of supporting Catrina and what she thinks.

[catesta]

chris

maybe we can finally catch that baseball game

I watched the Yanks get beat by Seattle yesterday.

[7/4]

I married when I was older

Let's do the time warp again...

Obviously I'm pretty useless here...I never had kids, only music.

[Harold_Z]

Catrina is worried at this point that they're going to screw up the rest of the their high school years and hurt the chances to gain acceptance to a decent college. Not to mention she is tired of the aggravation.

So, she is thinking about moving them back to Arizona for the next several years so they will finish high school and graduate in Phoenix.

She feels an obligation to try and make them happy in hopes to improve not only the grades but the overall outlook.

Any opinions as to whether or not this is the right thing to do?

Part of me says this is giving in, but then that's easy for me to say since I'm not the parent.

We really don't know if this is the best move.

One last thing. She thinks the kids need some counseling. I'm not usually a fan of that shit, but in this case I happen to agree. No way things in AZ can go back to what they were. Plus, they need to fully understand what it is their mother is doing for them. I mean this is going to be a major pain in the ass.

Oh, how I miss the days of beer and babes.

Thanks for listening.

Any chance of getting the counseling here instead of in AZ? With an idea towards NOT making the move?

Does Catrina like NY?

I dunno. It's a rough situation. My first reaction is "No. This is where I have to be and the kids will have to get used to it." but maybe that's too hard nosed in today's world. Maybe I would lean towards let's give it a little more time here to see if things sort out, while weighing the pros and cons of the move. You probably don't want to move the kids in the middle of a school year, so that would mean no move before June of next year.

But another dynamic is HEY - you're in a household with what? 3 other people? If you're the only one that wants to be here, you're in trouble.

[JSngry]

It's really tough for me 'cause I'm not the parent.

Oh really?

Not the parent, obviously. But if you're providing for their needs, and if you're living with thier mother (and providing for some or all of her needs) and you're not being a "parent" in some form or fashion, then you're being a chump.

That probably sounds a lot harsher than I mean for it to, but dude - you've got these people in your life now. If they need some direction, give it to them and don't apologize or feel guilty for it.

Doesn't mean you gotta be an insensitive prick about it or not seek outside assistance, but hey - there's a time to lead and a time to follow. The time to follow is when somebody's got a better sense of direction than you do. The time to lead is when nobody else does. Right now, the latter seems like it might be the case.

From what I've come to know of you, not having a sense of direction has never been a problem. It's now a question of using it on an intimate group, and not just on yourself or on business associates.

Step up, and good luck.

[RonF]

Chris, Keep in mind, it's not unusual for kids 15 and 16 to struggle with grades....anywhere - anytime. Their brains are a chemistry set...exploding. Those are tough years! And, it's not unusual for kids to tank in school after a move - temporarily. Once things become more familiar and more permanent, things tend to smooth out. It will help like hell and it's extemely important for you and Catrina to be on the same page - difficult as that may be. And don't rule out counseling if the wheels get wobbly. Hang in there.

[kenny weir]

When, in the '60s, my dad ran a furniture shop in NZ, he'd routinely sell a house-load of stuff to English families newly arrived.

Then he'd, routinely, buy it all back off 'em when they gots homesick for England.

And then about a year or so later, he'd (ahem, routinely) sell them another household of stuff when they returned, having realised the good, olde England they had been pining for was a mirage.

Which is to say, moving back to AZ may not solve anything. At all.

[Big Wheel]

I agree with much of Ron's post above. These are not easy years, no matter how you slice it.

Is it possible the school in NY is just a lot harder/more demanding than they one they went to in AZ? Maybe that has something to do with it.

Truth be told, I sometimes wonder if I would have turned out better off in the long run had the rest of the family not vetoed my father's ardent and constant desire to move when I was a kid. The very different details of the situation make it a bit of an apples-to-oranges comparison to your predicament, though.

[RonF]

Which is to say, moving back to AZ may not solve anything. At all.

Precisely.

[chris olivarez]

Chris, Keep in mind, it's not unusual for kids 15 and 16 to struggle with grades....anywhere - anytime. Their brains are a chemistry set...exploding. Those are tough years! And, it's not unusual for kids to tank in school after a move - temporarily. Once things become more familiar and more permanent, things tend to smooth out. It will help like hell and it's extemely important for you and Catrina to be on the same page - difficult as that may be. And don't rule out counseling if the wheels get wobbly. Hang in there.

My first thought was to let the kids move back to Arizona but after thinking about it I would say no. One of life's lessons is that it isn't always fair and it's not always going to go your way. I was fortunate enough to stay in one place when I was growing up but if it came down to it I would have moved because I wasn't paying the cost of being the boss. This may sound harsh and it may not be right but if you let them be in charge like that they're just going to up the ante and it will just get worse. Sangrey nailed it again-you don't have to be an insensitive prick but those kids need direction probably more than they need counseling. Since I'm hitchiking on Ron's post I'm also in large part agreeing with him.Once they're paying the freight they can go anywhere they please.

Edited July 21, 2006 by chris olivarez

[kenny weir]

Perhaps laying out the relative merits of the NY and AZ jazz scenes may be persuasive. No? OK.

[BERIGAN]

Chris, my minor suggestion. Perhaps setting a timeframe for the kids, and your girlfriend, IF everyone is still down on NY 6 months, 12 months from now(whatever sounds best) then you all can move on back. Chances are, the more time they spend in New York, the more the kids will like it make good friends, get in serious relationships, whathaveyou. That still won't help your girlfriend if she doesn't like it there....but might help...