Why Sinatra matters

[ghost of miles]

just found it on the internet - Bill Miller on piano, CD is called "After Hours With Bill Miller at the Piano," Sinatra with piano, bass, and drums.

Yep, that's the one I was talking about--there's another one too, called PERFECTLY FRANK (Berigan, those are the CDs to which I'm referring--if you want to hear some tracks, check out the Night Lights show I did on Sinatra's small-group sides Perfectly Frank).

[JSngry]

ONLY THE LONELY and IN THE WEE SMALL HOURS are the two albums I go back to the most, along with the ballads from the Columbia era.

May I be so bold as to recommend Nice & Easy? Ballad artistry, true artistry, without the heartbreak.

Agree, although ironically the title cut really doesn't belong on this otherwise excellent ballad set. Interesting that while you much prefer the ballad Sinatra, your favorites, i.e., Only the Lonely, Nice and Easy as well as the aforementioned In the Wee....., seem to be the Nelson Riddle arranged sides, the man also most responsible for the arrangements on the best of his swinging material while at Capitol. Regarding the Gordon Jenkins ballad arrangements for Sinatra during that mid to late '50s period, do you find his heavy reliance on strings a bit too saccharine as I do, or what?

Jenkins is not a particular favorite of mine, although there were certain moments of undeniable synergy between the two up until the (almost) very end. But Riddle, yeah, that's my man. For both ballads and swing numbers, actually. Harold talked about having to shed w/the sides to get the real changes. Well hell, in Riddle's case, you're just as often as not getting his changes, and they are quite often brilliant.

And just to clarify - there's a lot of the "swinging" Sinatra that I like quite a bit. Even if Sinatra himself didn't "swing", his bands always did, and the Riddle sessions seemed to always have the amazing Joe Comfort on bass. You wanna know why that shit swings, look no further than Joe Comfort. And if the band was swinging, Sinatra could get into that pocket of his and ride the shit out of it. I think he got better/more serious about this aspect of his craft as he aged, though.

But as to why Sinatra "matters", I still maintain that you have to go to the ballads. The swing stuff is fine, fun, often kickass (in the best sense), and it's had a lot of sociological impact (most of it negative, imo). But from Sinatra's end, it consists mostly/usually of craft and attitude (definite exceptions, to be sure). But on the ballads, there's some amazing displays of vocal and interpretive skills of the very highest level, and as a result, there's a depth and complexity of emotion there that the uptempo stuff just does not have. It's art, if you believe in such a thing. And in my mind, attitude and craft only "matter" in the moment and the moments immediately surrounding it. But art matters forever.

The question I'm asking myself now is this - why am I even talking about this? Sinatra's dead, the cultural climate that created/sustained him is either dead or pretending to still be alive, I've gotten what I need to get from him, and if I need some more, I know where it is. Do I really need to be having this conversation?

Apparently so , but it bothers me that I do.

[fasstrack]

. Love the art, got no use for the cult.

Well put. I can relate and not just where Mr. Sinatra is concerned. As far as names, we need not go there. Romanticism of assholes (or saints) is, like unrequited love, a bore.

[fasstrack]

Regarding the Gordon Jenkins ballad arrangements for Sinatra during that mid to late '50s period, do you find his heavy reliance on strings a bit too saccharine as I do, or what?

I don't undersatand this anti-Gordon Jenkins backlash. What's that about, guys? No, the strings were neither saccharine to me nor overbearing. Once upon a Time, When the Wind was Green, and It Was a Very Good Year from September of my Years never fail to move me. The strings are not only a frame, they are the perfect counter voice to Sinatra on that record. When they're under him, they're under him and when they soar they soar---and provide emotional crests of their own as thrilling as the singer's. I'm a hard-working composer and I'd be more than proud to write a chart even in the same ballpark as It was a Very Good Year.

Jenkins vs. Riddle? What's the point? both great writers, viva la difference.

Oh, and you may have heard: he wrote a few little things like Goodbye and This is all I Ask.....

Edited July 12, 2006 by fasstrack

[MartyJazz]

Regarding the Gordon Jenkins ballad arrangements for Sinatra during that mid to late '50s period, do you find his heavy reliance on strings a bit too saccharine as I do, or what?

I don't undersatand this anti-Gordon Jenkins backlash. What's that about, guys? No, the strings were neither saccharine to me nor overbearing. Once upon a Time, When the Wind was Green, and It Was a Very Good Year from September of my Years never fail to move me. The strings are not only a frame, they are the perfect counter voice to Sinatra on that record. When they're under him, they're under him and when they soar they soar---and provide emotional crests of their own as thrilling as the singer's. I'm a hard-working composer and I'd be more than proud to write a chart even in the same ballpark as It was a Very Good Year.

Jenkins vs. Riddle? What's the point? both great writers, viva la difference.

Oh, and you may have heard: he wrote a few little things like Goodbye and This is all I Ask.....

I pointedly mentioned the Jenkins arrangements of the mid to late '50s period because I was thinking of the Where Are You and No One Cares Capitol sessions which I've never been able to fully get into. However, I also quite like the September of My Years session, recorded several years thereafter, a concept album that I regard as Sinatra's best with Jenkins. As for Jenkins' compositional ability, no argument.

[Larry Kart]

What he does with vowel sounds on "Willow Weep For Me" -- how he colors them both timbrally and emotionally and links them up in long storytelling lines (the latter in ways I tried to write about once and failed, but or because the things he's doing are so subtle and powerful)!

[BruceH]

I can only take a "Sinatra fan" seriously if they're willing to just entertain the notion that Songs For Swinging Lovers is a damn good pop album of great sociological significance and immense musical pleasure, but Only The Lonely is a freakin' timeless masterpiece that plumbs the depths of a certain timeless element of the human condition. One's "hip", and the other's heavy.

Strange, for a long time I've considered In the Wee Small Hours as "heavy" and Only the Lonely as self-parody. Well, hey, to each his own.

[Kalo]

I can only take a "Sinatra fan" seriously if they're willing to just entertain the notion that Songs For Swinging Lovers is a damn good pop album of great sociological significance and immense musical pleasure, but Only The Lonely is a freakin' timeless masterpiece that plumbs the depths of a certain timeless element of the human condition. One's "hip", and the other's heavy.

Strange, for a long time I've considered In the Wee Small Hours as "heavy" and Only the Lonely as self-parody. Well, hey, to each his own.

I basically agree with you, though I'd hesitate to call it "self parody." Perhaps you just prefer the film noir iconography of In the Wee Small Hours's cover art to the Pagliacci on velvet of Only the Lonely. \

Seriously, Sinatra mattered, but Sinatra impersonators are a blight. Learn from the man but don't ape him. He was a great artist, and like many of that breed something of a monster. Many of his fans love him precisely for his monstrous Las Vegas side, while many of his detractors can't get beyond that image. I'd advise both camps to simply listen to the music.

Nelson Riddle, of course, was a vital part of Sinatra's achievements. Neither man was as great without the other.

[jazzbo]

Does this Sinatra matter?

I guess Papa Sinatra matters. I get along without him very well, though.

Edited July 13, 2006 by jazzbo

[ghost of miles]

Posted to Yahoo Songbirds earlier, but Will Friedwald says there's been no official confirmation yet:

I received the sad news that Bill Miller, long-time accompanist and conductor

for Frank Sinatra, passed away on Tuesday evening, July 11. He was on a gig with

Frank Sinatra, Jr., in Canada. Bill celebrated his 91st birthday this last

February. I have known Bill for many years, and I'll miss him a lot.

Pinky Winters

Miller was the accompanist on most, if not all, of those PERFECTLY FRANK and FS AFTER HOURS tracks.

[fasstrack]

Does this Sinatra matter?

Watch out those boobs don't walk all over you......

[jazzbo]

Hey, I've worked in Texas state government for 23 years! I'm very used to boobs walking all over me! (Especially in the Bush and Perry gubernatorial years).

[fasstrack]

Hey, I've worked in Texas state government for 23 years! I'm very used to boobs walking all over me! (Especially in the Bush and Perry gubernatorial years).

I dunno, Nancy's chads seem to be hanging nicely.....

[BruceH]

Seriously, Sinatra mattered, but Sinatra impersonators are a blight. Learn from the man but don't ape him. He was a great artist, and like many of that breed something of a monster. Many of his fans love him precisely for his monstrous Las Vegas side, while many of his detractors can't get beyond that image. I'd advise both camps to simply listen to the music.

Yes indeed. I couldn't agree more.

[ghost of miles]

Just finished the Hamill book (original topic of the thread)--it's a fine, brief meditation on Sinatra's origins and impact as second-generation immigrant-American icon.

[Chuck Nessa]

Try some Putney Dandridge.

[BERIGAN]

Try some Putney Dandridge.

Irving Kaufman could really swing.....

[Alexander]

Just had a wonderful listening to the "Francis A. and Edward K." album. Great charts by Billy May. I'm actually surprised that Ellington's band sounds as good as it does playing non-Ellington/Strayhorn charts (Strays had only died a few months earlier) and non-Ellington material. Frank isn't supposed to be in good voice here (according to Will Friedwald in "The Song Is You"), but I think he sounds great. As much as I love the Capitol years, I've really gotten into the Reprise material in the past few years.

[JSngry]

Just had a wonderful listening to the "Francis A. and Edward K." album. Great charts by Billy May. I'm actually surprised that Ellington's band sounds as good as it does playing non-Ellington/Strayhorn charts (Strays had only died a few months earlier) and non-Ellington material.

The band sounds horrible (and most likely intentionally so - May had the charts sent out to the band to get them road-tested for the studio, & Duke never pulled them out)! A wide stereo spread, a gazillion tones of reverb, a few ringers brought in (Al Porcino being one) helps hide that fact. But I had a speaker go out on me one time bavk in the day, and the vocal pretty much got lost, leaving the brass section. My GOD were they ragged!

Of course, this being the Ellington band and all, it comes off wonderfully, that band could make loose and ragged sound profoundly beautiful, but I'm just saying, even by those standards...

[catesta]

Just had a wonderful listening to the "Francis A. and Edward K." album. Great charts by Billy May. I'm actually surprised that Ellington's band sounds as good as it does playing non-Ellington/Strayhorn charts (Strays had only died a few months earlier) and non-Ellington material.

The band sounds horrible (and most likely intentionally so - May had the charts sent out to the band to get them road-tested for the studio, & Duke never pulled them out)! A wide stereo spread, a gazillion tones of reverb, a few ringers brought in (Al Porcino being one) helps hide that fact. But I had a speaker go out on me one time bavk in the day, and the vocal pretty much got lost, leaving the brass section. My GOD were they ragged!

Of course, this being the Ellington band and all, it comes off wonderfully, that band could make loose and ragged sound profoundly beautiful, but I'm just saying, even by those standards...

Reading shit like this always amazes me and I mean that as a compliment.

You've got some deep ass ears, my friend.

I've always thought the band sounded great and the album is one of my favorite Sinatra's. Never knew that shit about Porcino either. Doesn't ruin it for me, 'cause we obviously don't hear it the same way, but it will make me listen more closely.

[AllenLowe]

strangely enough, you know who's a great singer in the Sinatra mold? Can't think of his name, but the guy that used to be in Dukes of Hazzard - beautiful voice, great phrasing -

[AllenLowe]

tom wopat?

[JSngry]

Just had a wonderful listening to the "Francis A. and Edward K." album. Great charts by Billy May. I'm actually surprised that Ellington's band sounds as good as it does playing non-Ellington/Strayhorn charts (Strays had only died a few months earlier) and non-Ellington material.

The band sounds horrible (and most likely intentionally so - May had the charts sent out to the band to get them road-tested for the studio, & Duke never pulled them out)! A wide stereo spread, a gazillion tones of reverb, a few ringers brought in (Al Porcino being one) helps hide that fact. But I had a speaker go out on me one time bavk in the day, and the vocal pretty much got lost, leaving the brass section. My GOD were they ragged!

Of course, this being the Ellington band and all, it comes off wonderfully, that band could make loose and ragged sound profoundly beautiful, but I'm just saying, even by those standards...

Reading shit like this always amazes me and I mean that as a compliment.

You've got some deep ass ears, my friend.

I've always thought the band sounded great and the album is one of my favorite Sinatra's. Never knew that shit about Porcino either. Doesn't ruin it for me, 'cause we obviously don't hear it the same way, but it will make me listen more closely.

Oh, don't get me wrong - sometimes the Ellington band sounded better "ragged" than "tight". I'm just saying that this album is one of their raggediest, and that the folks @ Reprise covered it up REALLY well. But if you can find a way to get the vocals out of the mix & listen to the pitch, especially in the brass section...GOOD LORD is it all over the place. Same for the ensemble attacks - all over the place.

But it works, and the solos are magnificent. Sinatra's been better, though, but he's been worse, too.

The main thing, though, is the story that Duke deliberately sabotaged the charts (and therefore the session) by not having the band play them on the road beforehand, even though he had them and sent word back that all was going well. Some say that this was sending Sinatra "a message" for making overtures to Strayhorn about going onto his payroll. How serious those overtures were & how much truth there is to that story (others say that Duke was pissed about having Billy May write charts for his band in his style), I can't/won't vouch for, but it's all in the Will Friedwald Sinatra book, a book that I recommend, if with some non-deal-breaking reservations.

[AllenLowe]

I also like the way he crawls in through the window of his car -

[catesta]

Just had a wonderful listening to the "Francis A. and Edward K." album. Great charts by Billy May. I'm actually surprised that Ellington's band sounds as good as it does playing non-Ellington/Strayhorn charts (Strays had only died a few months earlier) and non-Ellington material.

The band sounds horrible (and most likely intentionally so - May had the charts sent out to the band to get them road-tested for the studio, & Duke never pulled them out)! A wide stereo spread, a gazillion tones of reverb, a few ringers brought in (Al Porcino being one) helps hide that fact. But I had a speaker go out on me one time bavk in the day, and the vocal pretty much got lost, leaving the brass section. My GOD were they ragged!

Of course, this being the Ellington band and all, it comes off wonderfully, that band could make loose and ragged sound profoundly beautiful, but I'm just saying, even by those standards...

Reading shit like this always amazes me and I mean that as a compliment.

You've got some deep ass ears, my friend.

I've always thought the band sounded great and the album is one of my favorite Sinatra's. Never knew that shit about Porcino either. Doesn't ruin it for me, 'cause we obviously don't hear it the same way, but it will make me listen more closely.

Oh, don't get me wrong - sometimes the Ellington band sounded better "ragged" than "tight". I'm just saying that this album is one of their raggediest, and that the folks @ Reprise covered it up REALLY well. But if you can find a way to get the vocals out of the mix & listen to the pitch, especially in the brass section...GOOD LORD is it all over the place. Same for the ensemble attacks - all over the place.

But it works, and the solos are magnificent. Sinatra's been better, though, but he's been worse, too.

The main thing, though, is the story that Duke deliberately sabotaged the charts (and therefore the session) by not having the band play them on the road beforehand, even though he had them and sent word back that all was going well. Some say that this was sending Sinatra "a message" for making overtures to Strayhorn about going onto his payroll. How serious those overtures were & how much truth there is to that story (others say that Duke was pissed about having Billy May write charts for his band in his style), I can't/won't vouch for, but it's all in the Will Friedwald Sinatra book, a book that I recommend, if with some non-deal-breaking reservations.

Yeah, I'm not saying it's one of Frank's best and is obviously not close to Duke's best, but it was them together and that works for me.

I'll have to give it a listen again later today to see if I pick up that raggedness. Playing it back in my mind I guess I can think/hear a little of what you're talking about.