Worst Mosaic Decision?

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

The worst mistake I made was not getting the Amos Milburn set. I think I have a little over half of it on 78, LP and CD and, at the time, I couldn't justify the opportunity cost. But listening to some tapes I'd made of all the stuff I've got, eliminating the many duplicates, I really wished I'd lashed out.

The Jacquet set is another, though I don't feel so bad about that one.

Their mistakes?

I, too, don't like the avoidance of original cover art and sleeve notes (where they existed).

And I agree the Patton set should have been a big box of everything.

I think they could have issued more collections like the Commodore and HRS boxes. Not that I've got those, but it seems that they've concentrated on licensing from the majors and forgotten about some interesting jazz indies that weren't acquired by the majors. Beehive, Progressive and JAM come to mind. I'm pretty sure there would have been others in the Avant Garde area; an area they've entirely ignored, I think, even more than they've ignored Soul Jazz.

MG

[J Larsen]

I've always been in the minority around here in not being a huge fan of Mosaic packaging, but I do like the "complete sessions" aspect of the label. The reality is that if Mosaic let consumers pick and choose, they would only be able to release a tiny fraction of the music they otherwise release, and therefore a lot of sessions would never see the light of day.

well, my point is ... i would love to buy me some 1950s lou donaldson, some 1950s hank mobley or some 1960s horace parlan ... but i really don't need everything of it, sorry ... just because lou donaldson recorded about 200 albums for the blue note label in the 1950s doesn't mean i have to buy and own 100 pounds of this stuff -_-

really, what's the point of having the complete 1950s lou donaldson? i mean, besides the simple fact that you can say: look, here i have the complete 1950s lou donaldson ... -_-

Your point was perfectly clear, I just disagree. If its a choice between possibly having to buy a little more than I normally would or having certain sessions never be reissued, I'm happy to fork over the extra cash. After all, many of the sessions that would never be reissued under the model you propose are exactly the sessions I'm most interested in.

[Dan Gould]

Releasing box sets instead of individual albums. I don't need moldy, calcified tomes with ugly packaging to prove that jazz is "worthy."

If Mosaic's box set designs constitutes "ugly packaging" I really have to wonder what you think of 32 Jazz releases. Ugly? Give me a break. Beautiful photography, distinctive packaging. To criticize it is mind-boggling.

As for box sets vs individual albums, you are simply ignoring the purpose for which Mosaic was founded. Furthermore, why would any label allow its albums to be licensed so that Mosaic can compete with their own reissue programs? If Mosaic took the approach you prefer, why would BN have any sort of reissue program?

Sorry but your complaints are stupefying.

[sjarrell]

well, my point is ... i would love to buy me some 1950s lou donaldson, some 1950s hank mobley or some 1960s horace parlan ... but i really don't need everything of it, sorry ... just because lou donaldson recorded about 200 albums for the blue note label in the 1950s doesn't mean i have to buy and own 100 pounds of this stuff -_-

really, what's the point of having the complete 1950s lou donaldson? i mean, besides the simple fact that you can say: look, here i have the complete 1950s lou donaldson ... -_-

Me, I LISTEN to the Complete 1950s Lou and Hank. That's the point, I think.

[Dan Gould]

well, my point is ... i would love to buy me some 1950s lou donaldson, some 1950s hank mobley or some 1960s horace parlan ... but i really don't need everything of it, sorry ... just because lou donaldson recorded about 200 albums for the blue note label in the 1950s doesn't mean i have to buy and own 100 pounds of this stuff -_-

If you are not interested in complete sets, you can pick and choose what Mobley, Donaldson or Parlan releases you do want through both domestic and Japanese reissue programs.

Mosaic serves a different part of the market.

[Hot Ptah]

Releasing box sets instead of individual albums. I don't need moldy, calcified tomes with ugly packaging to prove that jazz is "worthy."

I have not found mold inside any of my Mosaic boxes. Nor any calcium deposits.

One time I bought a single LP of Willie "the Lion" Smith from an ebay seller. The bottom half of the cardboard cover was consumed by mildew, to the point where the printed material was no longer legible, and it stunk so bad that even when I put it in the garage, we could still smell it inside the house.

That seller then sent me a series of emails arguing that I "owed" him positive feedback.

[BruceH]

Releasing box sets instead of individual albums. I don't need moldy, calcified tomes with ugly packaging to prove that jazz is "worthy."

I do.

In fact, if it weren't for moldy, calcified tomes I wouldn't like jazz at all.

[Stereojack]

One time I bought a single LP of Willie "the Lion" Smith from an ebay seller. The bottom half of the cardboard cover was consumed by mildew, to the point where the printed material was no longer legible, and it stunk so bad that even when I put it in the garage, we could still smell it inside the house.

That seller then sent me a series of emails arguing that I "owed" him positive feedback.

If he didn't mention the cover damage in the listing, you should've returned it. If he refused to refund you, then you could have given him the feedback he deserved.

[Ken Dryden]

I don't find it a big deal that Mosaic avoids duplicating the original covers of earlier individual releases. The sturdy packaging with mostly distinctive covers (a few not using photos have been bland), the easy to read and detailed liner notes, complete discographies and session photos when available all add to their appeal.

As for Mosaic ignoring avant-garde, soul jazz, etc., Michael Cuscuna and his partners are interested in staying in business, not just catering to every single request. Some projects are deemed not feasible or can't be licensed for a reasonable price. Others may not be of interest to him, so I don't blame him any more than label owners who don't pursue styles of jazz which don't interest them.

Why haven't the owners of said avant-garde jazz, soul jazz, etc. sessions gotten off their asses and done something about reissuing the music they own?

[John L]

Given that Cuscuna is a major influence in what appears on both Mosaic and Blue Note, my major regret is his apparent extreme dislike of the Three Sounds and Les McCann, which has kept their catalogs conspicuously out of print in the US while other Blue Note and Pacific Jazz titles get continually reissued over and over again.

Hm. I never fully understood the claim that 3 Sounds are kept OOP. I think that at least seven BN titles have been released in USA and at least another six in Japan only. I count 13 plus a Best Of.

I know that people want things to be 'in print' and 'cheap', but isn't 'still findable' and 'not costing a fortune' good enough for those who are interested (as opposed to those who just want to hoover up a cheap 'collection'? I thought the older Sounds reissues didn't sell very well - they aren't popular - and that has been the reason for dropping them.

Edited after a recount!

What seven titles would that be? I certainly can't recall that many. Some of the later live releases were included in the "Roots of Acid Jazz" reissue wave. Yet those discs are not really from the classsic 3 Sounds era. Black Orchid and Standards may have also been US releases (although I seem to recall that they are European). I have only seen Japanese releases of all of the classic 3 Sounds records from the early years. That is what I have in mind.

Edited December 12, 2007 by John L

[John L]

Michael Cuscuna is running a business. There is no conspiracy to keep music out of print. If he thinks their is sufficient interest to produce a boxed set, the music can be reasonably obtained through licensing, plus he is likely to make a decent profit, he will set the gears in motion.

Frankly, I can't imagine a huge demand for a Les McCann set.

Lat time I looked, the single "Best of" Les McCann on Pacific Jazz disc was going for well over $100 at ebay.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Michael Cuscuna is running a business. There is no conspiracy to keep music out of print. If he thinks their is sufficient interest to produce a boxed set, the music can be reasonably obtained through licensing, plus he is likely to make a decent profit, he will set the gears in motion.

Frankly, I can't imagine a huge demand for a Les McCann set.

Lat time I looked, the single "Best of" Les McCann on Pacific Jazz disc was going for well over $100 at ebay.

I want a McCann Mosaic box as much as, or more than, anyone. But do e-bay prices really indicate demand? I should have thought it indicated that there were a couple of well off buyers. Unless, of course, e-bay info can tell you how many bidders there were.

MG

[John L]

Well, it is an imperfect indicator. The market itself might be soemwhat shallow. Nevertheless, quite a number of the "Best of" CD were made. You would think that the high price that it fetches on the market does reveal the existence of a non-trivial demand for Pacific Jazz McCann. I am not just talking about one auction, mind you.

I am really loving the recent Mosaic Onzy Matthews set, for example. But it is hard for me to believe that general demand for Onzy Matthews is greater than that for Pacific Jazz Les McCann, or for the classic early 3 Sounds albums.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Well, it is an imperfect indicator. The market itself might be soemwhat shallow. Nevertheless, quite a number of the "Best of" CD were made. You would think that the high price that it fetches on the market does reveal the existence of a non-trivial demand for Pacific Jazz McCann. I am not just talking about one auction, mind you.

I am really loving the recent Mosaic Onzy Matthews set, for example. But it is hard for me to believe that general demand for Onzy Matthews is greater than that for Pacific Jazz Les McCann, or for the classic early 3 Sounds albums.

Thanks John. And I DO agree with you about the Onzy. However, the difference is also in the sheer volume of material McCann and the Three Sounds produced. I suspect it wouldn't be reasonable to try to compile a select for either - what goes in and what doesn't? So, if a big box were the rational decision, the numbers would probably be rather different. On the other hand, a McCann Limelight Select looks like a decent proposition - and that is GOOD stuff (mostly). Six LPs, none of them more than 40 and a bit minutes, some a good bit shorter; and if there are extra tracks, particularly from the live albums, "Bucket o' grease" could be ditched to get the rest on three CDs. The difficulty is that the first two LPs come to about 80:18 secs, so you couldn't put them on in the order of recording.

MG

[John L]

What about a Les McCann Mosaic Select of just the Pacific Jazz piano trios? That would be very tasteful (IMO).

Similarly, the best of the early Three Sounds albums would make a nice Select.

Edited December 12, 2007 by John L

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

What about a Les McCann Mosaic Select of just the Pacific Jazz piano trios? That would be very tasteful (IMO).

Good idea, but there were eight full LPs and most of two others and some material only issued on 45.

Truth

Half/most of Bag of gold

Shout

In San Francisco

Pretty lady

Top of barrel

New from the big city

Shampoo

Most of Gospel truth

Spanish onions

and about half of "Les McCann sings" was just done with the trio.

A Les McCann live trios on PJ would fit 3 CDs, I'm pretty sure

Shout

In San Francisco

New from big city

Shampoo

Spanish onions

part of Top of barrel

a 45 done in France

but if there is significant unissued material, there's probably no room for it.

MG

[John L]

Wow! I didn't realize that there was so much Pacific Jazz piano trio McCann, most of which I have never heard.

I guess that we will just have to tell Cuscuna to put it in one of the big boxes.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Actually, you could make a very good select of Les' jointly led albums

It's about time - with Teddy Edwards

Groove - with Groove Holmes & Ben Webster

Somethin' special - with Groove Holmes

Out front - with Clifford Scott

Jazz waltz - with the Jazz Crusaders

McCann/Wilson - with Gerald Wilson

There's not a dud in there - and only the two with Groove have ever come out on CD. I think the issued material might just fit onto 3 CDs. Again, though, if there is unissued material from those sessions, there's certainly no room.

MG

[David Ayers]

Given that Cuscuna is a major influence in what appears on both Mosaic and Blue Note, my major regret is his apparent extreme dislike of the Three Sounds and Les McCann, which has kept their catalogs conspicuously out of print in the US while other Blue Note and Pacific Jazz titles get continually reissued over and over again.

Hm. I never fully understood the claim that 3 Sounds are kept OOP. I think that at least seven BN titles have been released in USA and at least another six in Japan only. I count 13 plus a Best Of.

I know that people want things to be 'in print' and 'cheap', but isn't 'still findable' and 'not costing a fortune' good enough for those who are interested (as opposed to those who just want to hoover up a cheap 'collection'? I thought the older Sounds reissues didn't sell very well - they aren't popular - and that has been the reason for dropping them.

Edited after a recount!

What seven titles would that be? I certainly can't recall that many. Some of the later live releases were included in the "Roots of Acid Jazz" reissue wave. Yet those discs are not really from the classsic 3 Sounds era. Black Orchid and Standards may have also been US releases (although I seem to recall that they are European). I have only seen Japanese releases of all of the classic 3 Sounds records from the early years. That is what I have in mind.

I can't answer for what you would include or not, but I counted using amazon to confirm my memory (amazon showed more). I actually wrote down the list though I don't have it to hand. What titles don't you think exist in either US or Japanese releases?

[John L]

Given that Cuscuna is a major influence in what appears on both Mosaic and Blue Note, my major regret is his apparent extreme dislike of the Three Sounds and Les McCann, which has kept their catalogs conspicuously out of print in the US while other Blue Note and Pacific Jazz titles get continually reissued over and over again.

Hm. I never fully understood the claim that 3 Sounds are kept OOP. I think that at least seven BN titles have been released in USA and at least another six in Japan only. I count 13 plus a Best Of.

I know that people want things to be 'in print' and 'cheap', but isn't 'still findable' and 'not costing a fortune' good enough for those who are interested (as opposed to those who just want to hoover up a cheap 'collection'? I thought the older Sounds reissues didn't sell very well - they aren't popular - and that has been the reason for dropping them.

Edited after a recount!

What seven titles would that be? I certainly can't recall that many. Some of the later live releases were included in the "Roots of Acid Jazz" reissue wave. Yet those discs are not really from the classsic 3 Sounds era. Black Orchid and Standards may have also been US releases (although I seem to recall that they are European). I have only seen Japanese releases of all of the classic 3 Sounds records from the early years. That is what I have in mind.

I can't answer for what you would include or not, but I counted using amazon to confirm my memory (amazon showed more). I actually wrote down the list though I don't have it to hand. What titles don't you think exist in either US or Japanese releases?

Oh, the Japanese have released virtually everything, I believe, and some titles more than once. Yet I can recall no US releases of any of the classic early Three Sounds albums, which I think are their most representative and best work: Introducing, Bottoms Up, Good Deal, Feelin' Good, Moods, Here We Come, It Just Got to Be, Hey There.

Edited December 12, 2007 by John L

[David Ayers]

Given that Cuscuna is a major influence in what appears on both Mosaic and Blue Note, my major regret is his apparent extreme dislike of the Three Sounds and Les McCann, which has kept their catalogs conspicuously out of print in the US while other Blue Note and Pacific Jazz titles get continually reissued over and over again.

Hm. I never fully understood the claim that 3 Sounds are kept OOP. I think that at least seven BN titles have been released in USA and at least another six in Japan only. I count 13 plus a Best Of.

I know that people want things to be 'in print' and 'cheap', but isn't 'still findable' and 'not costing a fortune' good enough for those who are interested (as opposed to those who just want to hoover up a cheap 'collection'? I thought the older Sounds reissues didn't sell very well - they aren't popular - and that has been the reason for dropping them.

Edited after a recount!

What seven titles would that be? I certainly can't recall that many. Some of the later live releases were included in the "Roots of Acid Jazz" reissue wave. Yet those discs are not really from the classsic 3 Sounds era. Black Orchid and Standards may have also been US releases (although I seem to recall that they are European). I have only seen Japanese releases of all of the classic 3 Sounds records from the early years. That is what I have in mind.

I can't answer for what you would include or not, but I counted using amazon to confirm my memory (amazon showed more). I actually wrote down the list though I don't have it to hand. What titles don't you think exist in either US or Japanese releases?

Oh, the Japanese have released virtually everything, I believe, and some titles more than once. Yet I can recall no US releases of any of the classic early Three Sounds albums, which I think are their most representative and best work: Introducing, Bottoms Up, Good Deal, Feelin' Good, Moods, Here We Come, It Just Got to Be, Hey There.

Ah - well I see what your point is, but mine was that it has nearly all been reissued and that anyone who wants it can buy it. That tends to make a Mosaic set less imperative. FWIW 'Introducing...' was a US release in the early days.

Edited to add that the US issue of Introducing includes the whole of both volumes.

Edited December 12, 2007 by David Ayers

[BruceH]

The decision NOT to give me a $2000 gift certificate just on general principals.

[NaturalSoul]

Actually, you could make a very good select of Les' jointly led albums

It's about time - with Teddy Edwards

Groove - with Groove Holmes & Ben Webster

Somethin' special - with Groove Holmes

Out front - with Clifford Scott

Jazz waltz - with the Jazz Crusaders

McCann/Wilson - with Gerald Wilson

There's not a dud in there - and only the two with Groove have ever come out on CD. I think the issued material might just fit onto 3 CDs. Again, though, if there is unissued material from those sessions, there's certainly no room.

MG

I'd be very,very happy if the bolded got reissued!

Edited December 13, 2007 by NaturalSoul

[montg]

Actually, you could make a very good select of Les' jointly led albums

It's about time - with Teddy Edwards

Groove - with Groove Holmes & Ben Webster

Somethin' special - with Groove Holmes

Out front - with Clifford Scott

Jazz waltz - with the Jazz Crusaders

McCann/Wilson - with Gerald Wilson

There's not a dud in there - and only the two with Groove have ever come out on CD. I think the issued material might just fit onto 3 CDs. Again, though, if there is unissued material from those sessions, there's certainly no room.

MG

I'd be very,very happy if the bolded got reissued!

The McCann and others idea sounds interesting--I'd spring for it.

[Jeff]

Worst Mosaic decisions have been:

The Chico Hamilton

Charles Brown Aladdin Set

Kenton Presents Cooper, Holman and Rosolino

Illinois Jaquet

Woody Herman Capitol Set