Koester: Downloading Destroying Our Business

[ghost of miles]

Finally getting a chance tonight to catch up on some jazz periodical reading, and noted this letter from Bob Koester in the April '06 "Chords & Dischords" section of Downbeat:

In Andrew Grenier's article "Download Dilemmas" (March '06), Bruce Iglauer says that Alligator Records' business is down 20 percent to 30 percent. Labels like Delmark, which are not distributed by a major label, are much worse off. Delmark does 50 percent of the business that it did six years ago. I'm also concerned about the rapid disappearance of independent record stores. There are only half as many independent stores in the country as there were 10 years ago. The main reasons for the astonishing number of store closures are downloading and copying among collectors. I long for the day when shoplifters were our biggest problem.

Bob Koester

Owner, Delmark Records and Jazz Record Mart,

Chicago

Re: independent record stores, wouldn't online ordering also account for a big drop in these shops' business?

[WD45]

Re: independent record stores, wouldn't online ordering also account for a big drop in these shops' business?

Absolutely. Having worked for years in an indie store and a short time in a corporate-whore store, both were ultimately closed due to online purchasing. How many times at that indie shop did we offer to special-order an item? Many times. We had to, because we didn't have the room or resources to carry a deep back catalog of specialized items. When people start saying "nah, I'll just order it online," then you have trouble. Soon they stop coming in at all, ordering from Amazon with free shipping.

Sure, downloading has an impact, but I think that the online marketplace's effect is much greater.

Let us also remember that not all downloading is illegal. [iTunes, eMusic, etc.]

[montg]

Couldn't Jazz Record Mart meet the online challenge if they had a good website and increased their online retail (like dustygroove or Euclid Records)?

(edited for idiotic spelling)

Edited May 5, 2006 by montg

[Rooster_Ties]

Couldn't Jazz Record Mart could meet the online challenge if they has a good webstie and increased their online retail (like dustygroove or Euclid Records)?

Absoultely. Dusty, especially, has definitely met the challenge. Laugh all you want at their mad-lib product descriptions (I laugh a them too!! ), but damn if they don't work.

[Dan Gould]

Couldn't Jazz Record Mart meet the online challenge if they had a good website and increased their online retail (like dustygroove or Euclid Records)?

(edited for idiotic spelling)

I thought Jazz Record Mart had a pretty good web presence.

[Jim Alfredson]

Times change. You can sit around and wish it weren't so, or you can adapt and survive.

[Soul Stream]

Personally, I lament the Walmart-ization of our world.

[mailman]

I have to take Bob Koester seriously. I've been buying his releases since I bough Junior Wells Hoodo Man Blues in 1966. I believe that in the past he has served as the head of an organization of independent record labels. That said, it must be noted that some Delmark releases are available for download at emusic.com.

Independent record stores (mom and pops) are vanishing. But major chains like Tower are in more than a little bit of trouble. I used to spend hours on end browsing in record stores. The key work is 'record'. Once the cd era came in record stores lost their appeal. No longer was it possible to learn anything reading liner notes. Now, what information that is provided is locked inside a jewel case in print so small I can hardly read it without a magnifying glass. I can learn more buying on line and reading reviews available on numerous websites. I can also go to the websites of the actual artists and read what they have to say about the music they have created.

[Jim Alfredson]

Personally, I lament the Walmart-ization of our world.

So do I, but the internet is our tool against that. Yeah, we might not be able to go down to our favorite brick and mortar record store and buy the latest Joey D disc, but we can order it online and have it in our hands within a few days, meanwhile listening to samples, reading about the disc, reviews, etc. Walmart doesn't get our money in either scenario.

[JSngry]

I'd love to go to a brick-and-mortar, be it chain or mom-and-pop, if I could find one that could be counted on to be consistently offering me something that I would buy. But that ain't happenin'.

The product won't come to me, so I go to the product. Or something like that...

Anywa, thank you Al Gore, for inventing the Internet.

[montg]

Couldn't Jazz Record Mart meet the online challenge if they had a good website and increased their online retail (like dustygroove or Euclid Records)?

I thought Jazz Record Mart had a pretty good web presence.

Judge for yourself. Do a search for, say, 'Cannonball Adderley' and see if this is the place where you want to do your online shopping.

jrm

[Dan Gould]

Couldn't Jazz Record Mart meet the online challenge if they had a good website and increased their online retail (like dustygroove or Euclid Records)?

I thought Jazz Record Mart had a pretty good web presence.

Judge for yourself. Do a search for, say, 'Cannonball Adderley' and see if this is the place where you want to do your online shopping.

jrm

OK. Three pages of releases, all the way down to tribute CDs available for download, and plenty of Cannonball leader dates. What's the problem, exactly? Prices might not be spectacular, but there seems to be a pretty deep catalog available.

[Uncle Skid]

Prices aren't spectacular, and the entire site is, well, amateur.

I'd much prefer to buy from the JRM (rather than Amazon, CD Universe, etc.). If they got the prices just a little closer, and improved the website a bit...

Adapt and survive.

[kenny weir]

I've browsed the Delmark site. Not a good look.

[rostasi]

We're losing our Virgin store any day now.

It's being replaced by a West Elm store.

I say good riddance. I'm just not gonna pay

inflated prices...and apparently, others won't either.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Couldn't Jazz Record Mart meet the online challenge if they had a good website and increased their online retail (like dustygroove or Euclid Records)?

I thought Jazz Record Mart had a pretty good web presence.

Judge for yourself. Do a search for, say, 'Cannonball Adderley' and see if this is the place where you want to do your online shopping.

jrm

I had a look, too. Didn't confine myself to Cannon; had a shufti at Ernie Andrews and Etta Jones. Found 5 Muse deletions I hadn't got (2 on K7, 3 on CD) at better than decent prices. Thanks mucho Montg.

MG

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Prices aren't spectacular, and the entire site is, well, amateur.

I'd much prefer to buy from the JRM (rather than Amazon, CD Universe, etc.). If they got the prices just a little closer, and improved the website a bit...

Adapt and survive.

I didn't think it was amateur at all; I thought it was one of the most professional, focused, sites I've ever bought from.

In the first place, it was very easy to use; I found and ordered five albums in only about three minutes. I ordered eleven CDs in the Collectables sale last week and the rigmarole I had to go through to get each item into my bleeding basket I just couldn't believe. The process took nearly an hour!

Second, I could see everything very clearly. Koester probably has a good idea of his customers' age group and has had the thing designed so it can be read easily by people with poor eyesight.

Third, there weren't three billion adverts clamouring for my attention.

Fourth, moving from screen to screen was quick.

Fifth, the details they wanted were a bit less than other sites and it was clear what they wanted. In particular, there was a drop down menu for state with an option "outside US", which is extremely helpful for us "furriners".

To me, all that suggests that someone has done some deep thinking about what customers want. And that is the height of professionalism, in my view.

MG

[Simon Weil]

Finally getting a chance tonight to catch up on some jazz periodical reading, and noted this letter from Bob Koester in the April '06 "Chords & Dischords" section of Downbeat:

In Andrew Grenier's article "Download Dilemmas" (March '06), Bruce Iglauer says that Alligator Records' business is down 20 percent to 30 percent. Labels like Delmark, which are not distributed by a major label, are much worse off. Delmark does 50 percent of the business that it did six years ago. I'm also concerned about the rapid disappearance of independent record stores. There are only half as many independent stores in the country as there were 10 years ago. The main reasons for the astonishing number of store closures are downloading and copying among collectors. I long for the day when shoplifters were our biggest problem.

Bob Koester

Owner, Delmark Records and Jazz Record Mart,

Chicago

Re: independent record stores, wouldn't online ordering also account for a big drop in these shops' business?

I think it's more that anything off the beaten track has trouble these days. I mean Koester says as much when he says that his label is 50% off because it's not distributed by a major. My impression is that more and more these days "big is boss" in both the sense that big chains or big distributors determine what reaches the public - and what these big bosses are into is things that will make the bottom line bigger.

That's the supply side, which is conservative - restricted to the big sellers. But I think there's also a demand side, which is also conservative. Like I've said before, this is a pretty hyper-conservative age - and I think that's fed into people* wanting (Or more correctly, not wanting) Jazz (or anything else "different"). Maybe the supply side is a rationalisation of the demand side.

I've always thought (for 4+ years) that this hyper-conservative age is the last kick of the Reagan-Thatcher era - Basically attempting to crush out everything that, when it's gone, can form the beginnings of the Liberal era that's would follow. If that's so, Jazz will again have the chance of being popular; big will become less beautiful - and we might see some interesting stuff.

My myth...

Simon Weil

*Just the core audience.

[Uncle Skid]

I didn't think it was amateur at all; I thought it was one of the most professional, focused, sites I've ever bought from.

I just went back for a closer look, and I can't disagree with anything you wrote.

The entire site just has a "dated" look to me -- and it doesn't seem like they update it very often. For instance, the "On Sale Now" page hasn't been updated in almost two years.

But, I see that you (and others on the board) have had good experiences ordering from them online, and that's good enough for me.

[Dave James]

In the dog eat dog world of record retailing, there is some classic Darwinism at work, i.e. survival of the fittest. The move to online purchasing is the prime example. As several posters have already pointed out, Dusty Groove, for one, appears to be flourishing or at least holding its own, while others, like Delmark are about to go down for the third time. If Mr. Koester doesn't realize his business model is broken, then he has no one to blame but himself. I know it costs money to modernize, and Delmark has always struck me as one of those labels that just holds on by a string, but if you aren't willing to do what's necessary to keep up, then the consequences are self-inflicted.

There's also the issue of product. Delmark has made a significant commitment to a segment of the music that is on the margins when it comes to the size of its potential audience. I think it's great that they are willing to take that kind of artistic stand, but it may also be what's contributing to their financial instability.

Up over and out.

Edited May 8, 2006 by Dave James

[Eric]

My retail buying habits have changed significantly over the past 10 years. Used to be, a business trip to Chicago meant a mandatory stop at JRM and a financial impact to be in the $200 - $300 range. Now, I cannot remember the last time I went there.

The online model is quite compelling, especially if you know what you are looking for. In 2006 alone, the three largest used record stores in KC have shut down. The remaining retail stores are awful.

I still think that a independent record store could work, although maybe I am nuts. For me, the key would be service - in particular, the ability to recommend something fresh. 99% of the recommendations I receive now are online - from some critic or here. Frankly (aside from this place), my tastes seem to be out of alignment with many critics, especially on the rock side of the house. So in terms of directing my music dollar, I would definitely spend with a local independent with a great staff.

The key of course is "great staff". There is a pretty cool indendent store in nearby Lawrence (a college town), but the staff is rather clueless. Still, it is fun to talk music with the owner when he is around.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I didn't think it was amateur at all; I thought it was one of the most professional, focused, sites I've ever bought from.

I just went back for a closer look, and I can't disagree with anything you wrote.

The entire site just has a "dated" look to me -- and it doesn't seem like they update it very often. For instance, the "On Sale Now" page hasn't been updated in almost two years.

But, I see that you (and others on the board) have had good experiences ordering from them online, and that's good enough for me.

Well (rueful grin), it may be easy to order stuff from JRM, but it sure ain't easy to actually get it! I just had an e-mail from Bob Koester to say that, of the 5 albums I'd ordered, he could only supply one! Made the excuse about volatility of stock which, as far as I can see, butters no parsnips - if his stock is 80% volatile, he's making a lot of money

No, this appears to be as you said, Uncle, he isn't updating the site frequently enough. And THAT'S very unprofessional.

MG

[Rooster_Ties]

I think the JRM site is pretty hard to use to just brouse for stuff.

Sidemen aren't listed on most albums, and searches only get hits based on leaders (mostly). Also, most of the releases don't have even the years of recording (or decades) listed. You pretty much have to look up everything someplace else to even find out basic info about the date. Not very easy to do searches by label either.

In short, the site is about as user-friendly as the catalog section in the middle of Cadence mags (or having said Cadence catalog in Microsoft Word, maybe).

Sure, if you already know what you're looking for -- the JRM site is OK (and just "OK" at best). But those of us looking to explore a bit, are sure out of luck doing much exploration with listings as informative as this (straight from their "Product List" page...)

Code Name Price Description

0121576172 WASHINGTON,GROVER JR/BEST OF... -CD *MOT $12.99 Jazz CD MOT *w

0121577442 J.B.S/PASS THE PEAS:THE BEST OF THE -CD *POL $12.99 Jazz CD *J

0121579602 GRUSIN,D-RITENOUR,L/TWOWORLDS -CD *MOT $17.99 Jazz CD DEC *g

0121594542 COREA,CHICK/TRIO MUSIC -CD *ECM 21232 $17.99 Jazz CD *C

0121594942 BRAHEM,ANOUAR / ASTRAKAN CAFE -CD *MOT $17.99 Jazz CD MOT *B

0121597342 GILLESPIE,DIZZY / THE GIANT -CD *VERVE 012 $12.99 Jazz CD VERVE 012 159 734 *G

0121597412 WONDER,STEVIE/ORIGINAL MUSIQUARIUM -CD *MOT $14.99 R&B CD

0121598212 bechet ,sidney claude luter / jazz in paris -CD *gitanes 159821 $9.99 Jazz CD gitanes 159821 *bB

0121598232 THOMPSON, LUCKY/MODERN JAZZ GROUP - CD *GIGANTES 159823 $11.99 Jazz CD GITANES *T

0121598542 REINHARDT,DJANGO/JAZZ IN PARIS -CD $12.99 Jazz CD *R

0121599412 JASPAR, BOBBY/MODERN JAZZ AU CLUB ST-GERMAIN *Gitanes $11.99 Jazz CD *J

0147940132 JOPLIN, SCOTT / THE GOL COLLECTION -CD $23.99 Jazz CD 2 CDS / RETRO 4013 BOX SET *J

0147940882 VA / THE SWING:THE OFFICIAL HISTORY OF NEW ORLEANS JAZZ 1917 - 1945 -CD $23.99 Jazz CD 2 CDS / PROPER 88 BOX SET *V

0150130472 DR.JOHN/TRIPPINLIVE -CD $15.99 Blues CD SUR0013047 *BLD

0161401922 MARIE,RENE/HOW CAN I... -CD *M.M $15.99 Jazz CD MAX *mm

0165500432 ROTH, ERIC/ANATHEMA - CD *ROSCO $12.99 Jazz CD ROSCO *R

0165500972 MOSBERG, PHIL / THE NEW BALANCE -CD *SOLITAIRE $12.99 Jazz CD *MM

0165501002 MOSBERG, PHIL/TENNAIE, MARTA / ONE DAY -CD *SOLITAIRE $12.99 Jazz CD *MM

016565555220 MARTINO, PAT / NIGHTWINGS -CD *Muse 5039 $7.99 Jazz CD Muse 5552 *Mm

0170400022 HEATH,JIMMY/PICTURE OF HEATH -CD *PRV $13.99 Jazz CD *H

Who wants to skim though page, after page, after page, after page of that crap.

Edit: I know the format of my quote is different from that on the site -- but hell's bells, the raw-text formatting in the quote above is actually BETTER than the formatting of the same info on the actual JRM site.

Make that two thumbs down...

Edited May 9, 2006 by Rooster_Ties

[Simon Weil]

Finally getting a chance tonight to catch up on some jazz periodical reading, and noted this letter from Bob Koester in the April '06 "Chords & Dischords" section of Downbeat:

...The main reasons for the astonishing number of store closures are downloading and copying among collectors. I long for the day when shoplifters were our biggest problem.

Bob Koester

Owner, Delmark Records and Jazz Record Mart,

Chicago

...

The thing I think about here is how close this argument is to the one used by the film industry - where the threat is (illegal) downloading and video-piracy. They do these desperately hipper-than-thou adverts which you have to watch because they've stuck them at the beginning of DVDs. This is in the UK...

They used to do this advert which said video-piracy funds organised crime and...terrorism. At the word "terrorism" my heart just revolted. I mean, OK, the film industry doesn't want us going to external sources to get its movies - but using "terrorism" as a threat....I just hated it. And it shows how desperate these big companies are to prevent an erosion of control of their product.

Thus, behind this argument, as used by Koester - a small retailer - there is a very self-serving argument proseletyzed (sp?) by the big companies.

They obviously dread the hipness of alternative sources of supply.

Simon Weil

Edited May 10, 2006 by Simon Weil

[nemo]

Just a note from someone on the "inside"...We're not unaware of the amateurish look of the website, and the various other problems you have all described. But those of us who deal with online and phone orders here in the store have no way of changing anything around here. It's embarrassing to deal with on a day-to-day basis, but believe me when I tell you that we've done everything we could think of to convince the people in charge that the website needs to be fixed. Since that's not going to happen, if you want to order from jrm, call our toll-free number. Things will work out better that way.