James Hunter

[GregN]

Street Team or no, I had to check out the site. Seen him a lot on the Blues charts, you know, just beneath Root Doctor.

This dude has some serious press and I am intrigued by his voice. Anybody else here give this guy a listen?

Looks like he was just on Leno, fwiw.

James Hunter

[GregN]

OK they got me. I just bought the CD, via the organissimo site*, from Amazon.

Jim, I imagine Freddie singing some of these sorts of tunes and well...it gets me a thinkin'.

g

*Jim chewed my ass for not supporting the site with my recent cd purchases.

[JSngry]

Ok, I listened to the tunes on the site. It's cool, but c'mon - how much longer are white folks gonna go around defining their "hipness" by their ability to make non-humiliating versions of 50 year old black musical styles?

The only people who NEED this type of music are those who still ain't "got it" yet. To them, I can only say hey - you see that little, REALLY little tiny speck on the horizon that gets smaller every second? Yeah, that one. Well, that's your chance to have it really matter. And the odds of you getting there from here before that speck disappears completely ain't too hot. Better start looking around for something that matters NOW.

Sorry to be so harsh, but really...

[GregN]

Ok, I listened to the tunes on the site. It's cool, but c'mon - how much longer are white folks gonna go around defining their "hipness" by their ability to make non-humiliating versions of 50 year old black musical styles?

The only people who NEED this type of music are those who still ain't "got it" yet. To them, I can only say hey - you see that little, REALLY little tiny speck on the horizon that gets smaller every second? Yeah, that one. Well, that's your chance to have it really matter. And the odds of you getting there from here before that speck disappears completely ain't too hot. Better start looking around for something that matters NOW.

Sorry to be so harsh, but really...

No need to be sorry..

I had to listen to the samples several times while not looking at the guy. I know that sounds funny. For me my primary intent is looking for essential concepts to lift for my own song writing projects. James does have some contemporary twists hidden in there. Now, our front guy is a 63 year old black guy. I can hear him singing these kinds of tunes, but with some different twist coming from the band. Some less safe than what James is doing. Trying to figure that twist out. I totally understand where you are coming from as my first responses were not that positive.

One of the reviews actually referred to his work as a museum piece of sorts and meant it as a compliment.

I guess I can't really argue with you on this one. Part of me agrees with you. Yet, I am diggin deeper on this guy. After I get the disc I will honestly report back. I may just have wasted 12 bucks. And maybe I didn't.

[Jim Alfredson]

I guess it comes down to intention. Is this guy's intention to be relevant, or is it just to make some music that sounds like the music he (and lots of other people) like? If it's the latter, than he's succeeding and bully for him. If it's the former, well... I agree with Sangry.

[Soul Stream]

I didn't listen to the samples, but...to chime in on the race thing.

I've noticed that if you're black it's o.k. to go back and do songs done originally by black guys 50 years ago. But if you're white, it's not your heritage, so it's phoney. I don't know, it's a little racist imho. The music's out there for everyone at this point. Not sure if an 18 year old black kid from the suburbs has any more claim to black roots music than and 18 year old white kid or latino kid. Same reason Charlie Pride wasn't really accepted with open arms by C&W fans initially (or ever really you could argue). Some of this arguement is a little self serving I'd admit. But I would argue the same would have to be said for Sangrey playing music spearheaded by Alberty Ayler/Coltrane or Jim Alfredson singing a Ray Charles tune...is all that phoney too? To some people yes. I think that's a drag.

[JSngry]

Mike, you hit it on the head with this one:

The music's out there for everyone at this point. Not sure if an 18 year old black kid from the suburbs has any more claim to black roots music than and 18 year old white kid or latino kid.

That's it exactly.

My question is this - since it is now everybody's music, what's the point of imitation? If you use a bit of last week's spaghetti sauce as a starter for this week's, hey cool. But if you just use the old sauce as is, what's the point? It's kind of sick, really. Make a new, fresh sauce with the old ingredients. Just because there's a market for it doesn't mean that it's healthy.

Popular music can be a wonderful stimulus that wakes us up to the now and propels us positively into the future, or it can be a crippling sickness that keeps us tied down to the past. No matter how great the past was, its results are already known. So what's the point of playing a game where you already know the outcome? As a hobby, sure. Or as a study. Gotta study. But anything beyond that and you end up being a willing participant in the whole big ugly machine that has no intention of letting anybody move ahead. Because moving ahead requires having ownership of yourself. And there's a huge system out there that has every intention of not letting you own yourself past the point of allowing you to create the illusion of ownership.

This is not a question of "individual credibility" nearly as much as it is of waking up to the fact that there's probably better things to do with your time than trying to define your present in terms of somebody else's, anybody else's, past.

And yeah, I've been guilty of that too. And yeah, I'm trying to stop. It ain't easy. Wish me luck.

[DukeCity]

mmmmm.....spaghetti

I agree, Jim (S.). I haven't checked out the music samples from the artist/website in question, but the issue of having too much of your thing being comprised of copping stuff from the past is certainly something to be wrestled with. And the question immediately following that acknowledgement is "Yeah, but how much is too much?" I don't know. Different strokes, I suppose. Do you go for roots with a twist, as GregN alluded to, or do you go for a new thing with a dash of roots for credibility?

And as far as Pop music goes, I think the retro-styles are best left to the guys who did it in the first place. I played a casino show the other night, backing up Frankie Avalon, Fabian and Bobby Rydel, billing themselves as "The Golden Boys". I'm a little young to have that be the "music of my youth" so it's not that meaningful to me, but the crowd was sure digging it, and there was a vibe of real appreciation and love and nostalgia in the room. I don't want to hear anybody else trying to cop a Frankie Avalon thing, and I certainly don't want to hear Frankie Avalon trying to get into a new bag ("Hey, here's something for the kids..."). But for those guys who did it originally, and for the audience that was/is drawn to them, that night we had the right guys for the right job.

Edited May 4, 2006 by DukeCity

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Mike, you hit it on the head with this one:

The music's out there for everyone at this point. Not sure if an 18 year old black kid from the suburbs has any more claim to black roots music than and 18 year old white kid or latino kid.

That's it exactly.

My question is this - since it is now everybody's music, what's the point of imitation? If you use a bit of last week's spaghetti sauce as a starter for this week's, hey cool. But if you just use the old sauce as is, what's the point? It's kind of sick, really. Make a new, fresh sauce with the old ingredients. Just because there's a market for it doesn't mean that it's healthy.

Popular music can be a wonderful stimulus that wakes us up to the now and propels us positively into the future, or it can be a crippling sickness that keeps us tied down to the past. No matter how great the past was, its results are already known. So what's the point of playing a game where you already know the outcome? As a hobby, sure. Or as a study. Gotta study. But anything beyond that and you end up being a willing participant in the whole big ugly machine that has no intention of letting anybody move ahead. Because moving ahead requires having ownership of yourself. And there's a huge system out there that has every intention of not letting you own yourself past the point of allowing you to create the illusion of ownership.

This is not a question of "individual credibility" nearly as much as it is of waking up to the fact that there's probably better things to do with your time than trying to define your present in terms of somebody else's, anybody else's, past.

And yeah, I've been guilty of that too. And yeah, I'm trying to stop. It ain't easy. Wish me luck.

I agree with you, really, Jim, but I just want to qualify what you said a bit, because it looks a bit too absolute.

There isn't one market out there, there are many. Some communities, and their markets, move at a different pace, and maybe in a slightly different direction, from others. Reading your post, I was continually referring back to Malaco's business plan in the '70s. The owners perceived that there was a group out there - specifically middle-aged black southerners - for whom little had changed and who therefore wanted the same kind of music they always wanted. You wouldn't expect the majors to cater for the market; but even the black music independents weren't catering for it. So Malaco signed Bobby Bland, Johnnie Taylor, Little Milton, Denise LaSalle, Dorothy Moore etc on the secular side, and the Jackson Southernaires, Willie Banks & the Messengers and a lot of other quartets on the Gospel side and provided what was, effectively, out of fashion black music for this market, which wasn't interested in George Clinton, Earth Wind & Fire, Sade, George Benson, Whitney Houston etc.

What Malaco were doing seemed to me similar to what Syd Nathan thought he was doing with King records; "making music for the little people".

This was backward looking stuff, but I don't see anything wrong with it. I readily agree that those artists weren't imitating anyone; they were doing their own things, albeit past their sell by date for the majority of the black music market, which DOESN'T look back.

I just thought you were being a bit too all-encompassing, there.

MG

Edited May 4, 2006 by The Magnificent Goldberg

[JSngry]

Well, yeah. It is absolute for me personally. But that's as far as I take it.

Mileages can, do, and should vary. But I know what I'm driving, so...

In the meantime, check out the rodcast!

Edited May 4, 2006 by JSngry

[Soul Stream]

I'm not sure Malaco was looking back. That production on that stuff is very era-dependent to the 70's/80's. As well as the instrumentation. Sure it's classic R&B and Blues...but those Malaco sides don't take any production cues from the 50's or 60's. Plus the beats and stuff are of the times. That market existed in that era very much so, cause I played many gigs to those audiences in Dallas during the late 80's and 90's. Z.Z Hill was god back then.

And Jim, I do agree you have to absorb and then do something yourself. Mere imitation certainly isn't the end goal for sure (but after hearing a lot of "originality" sometimes I'm not so sure. )

Edited May 4, 2006 by Soul Stream

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I'm not sure Malaco was looking back. That production on that stuff is very era-dependent to the 70's/80's. As well as the instrumentation. Sure it's classic R&B and Blues...but those Malaco sides don't take any production cues from the 50's or 60's. Plus the beats and stuff are of the times. That market existed in that era very much so, cause I played many gigs to those audiences in Dallas during the late 80's and 90's. Z.Z Hill was god back then.

Good point. Certainly there were updated production techniques; Malaco had bought the Muscle Shoals studio and inherited a lot of that aesthetic. But I remember either Tommy Couch or Wolf Stevenson being interviewed and talking about the market they were going for, and it was the older people, who wanted what they'd always had.

MG

[Soul Stream]

Yes, that audience did exist very much so at that time. Too bad that audience has slowly faded. They were a great group of people to play to. Amazing to think how much these everyday people loved and KNEW the music. A much simpler time when music was held in higher regard by the communities that fostered the different scenes.

[Chuck Nessa]

It's a sad state of affairs when musicians go in search of an audience to satisfy instead of the reverse.

That makes the musicians marketeers first and we all lose.

[Jim Alfredson]

Back to the musician at hand, all the points made are valid ones and worth considering, but who says this guy isn't just doing this type of music because he loves it and that's what he wants to do? And what's wrong with that? Again, if his intention is not to change the world but to be a "stylist" (like many, many jazz guys), then why not? Not many people are playing this kind of stuff.

Plus, the guy is English, which may explain some of it... ;D

But seriously, is a classical pianist who excels at and specializes in Chopin jive because he plays 100+ year old Sonatas and Etudes?

[Chuck Nessa]

But seriously, is a classical pianist who excels at and specializes in Chopin jive because he plays 100+ year old Sonatas and Etudes?

Now we enter the realm of "interpretation / recreation" which is a different animal than jazz, blues, pop or contemporary classical composers. Two different things and I'm sad to say I feel the "society" is accepting the former instead of the latter currently and this "attitude" has the upper hand in the marketplace. All participants can take blame/credit for this situation.

[JSngry]

But seriously, is a classical pianist who excels at and specializes in Chopin jive because he plays 100+ year old Sonatas and Etudes?

Depends on whether or not he hypes himself as a "keeper of the flame" or something like that and then goes about the business of raking in his bucks by giving aural comfort food to people who are frightened by Penderecki. Goes to intent, which ultimately goes to content.

Look, god knows I love soul, R&B, funk, disco (yes, disco - the best of it is excetionally groove-y), and all the old-school shit. I still like hearing it, and I still like playing it. But only up to a point. For me, it's like pulling out the family photo album and getting taking a trip back to a deep part of my roots, to reminisce and maybe occasionally get a flash on how things got to be where they are today. Maybe even pick up on some things I had missed before. The past can be beautiful if you realize that it is the past. Go back as needed, just make sure to come back. Hardly anybody tosses out their family album, dig?

But ya know, I just don't see the sense in putting new pictures in that album that are so close to the old ones that it makes no difference in the end. What's the story there? Yeah, I know, different strokes and all that. I'm cool with that part of it. What bugs me is that waaaay too often this type of thing is just more wishful thinking about how great things used to be and ain't it a shame that they don't make'em like this anymore but I am and I'm touring with Aretha so I must be the real deal and here's my product gimmeyourmoneythankyou verymuch. Aw, isn't he cute? He looks just like his grandfather! Oh, his grandfather was a helluva man, yes he was. Hey, this kid's alright!

There's definitely a market for that, sure. But hey - it's not healthy. Sorry, it's jsut not. It may not necessarily beharmful, but it just ain't healthy. And I gurantee you that most of the target market for this type stuff is not looking at this type music as part of a well-balanced musical/intellectual/spiritual diet, if you know what I mean. And yeah, most of the audience for any type music ain't doing that. But I gotta ask myself if it's not perversely at least a little bit more healthy to be shallow in the present than it is in the past. I think it is, just becasue you're less likely to suffer as severe a trauma if and when you ever do wake up.

Just my opinion.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Plus, the guy is English, which may explain some of it... ;D

Oh well, if he's English, he's from the wrong side of Offa's Dyke.

MG

[Alexander Hawkins]

p.s. shouldn't this be where Clunky mentions Hadrian's wall?

[Hot Ptah]

To me, an important issue is whether the artist playing older material, in whatever genre of music, brings something new to older material, something of himself or herself, which may give us some new ideas to consider about the material.

For example, Murray Perahia plays Bach and Mozart piano pieces in a way that makes me rethink the material. I find new insights in what could be tired old pieces, because Perahia's mind, heart and soul transform the material (at least for me).

I usually find note for note recreations of older jazz, played without new ideas and without much soul, to be very boring.

[GregN]

Well it just came in the mail today. I am gonna take it out to the garage and listen while I do some spring cleaning. Will report back soon.

[GregN]

Well it just came in the mail today. I am gonna take it out to the garage and listen while I do some spring cleaning. Will report back soon.

This disc sounds very nice. Well produced and wonderful vocals, imo. I really can't find fault here. My personal aesthetic lies elsewhere, yet this guy is damn good at what he does. Very enjoyable disc.

g