Charlie Haden

[jazz1]

Eveybody raves about Charlie Haden, please explain, to me they are so many better bass players than Mr Haden.

To my ears he is one of the most overated jazz musicians I know.

Maybe I am missing something. Am I the only one thinking like that.

My favorites bass players are,

From the present

Dave Holland

From the past

Scott La Faro

and then host of others.

[Guest Chaney]

May I ask what Haden you've heard?

[JSngry]

And may I ask what it is that you're NOT hearing out of him?

[brownie]

If you like Scott LaFaro, get a copy of Ornette Coleman's Free Jazz. LaFaro and Haden

are on that classic. If your equipment setup is OK, you should hear LaFaro on the left

channel (with Don Cherry and Ornette Coleman) and Haden on the right channel (with

Freddie Hubbard and Eric Dolphy). What LaFaro plays is amazing. So is what Haden plays.

[jazzbo]

Haden, what a master. I'm not always crazy about his work, but he has been an important part of many sessions and MADE them, and that includes pop sessions as well as jazz (or odd permutations thereof, thinking in particular of contributions to Rickie Lee Jones' recordings.)

He has amazing command of the instrument, open open open ears, and is so amazingly cooperative with other musicians. (He does not domineer as some others may do.) And that tone!

I have many favorite bassists, and I would also probably forget to list him in a list of my favorites, but he is well-represented in my collection, and there are so many instances where I go "Wow Charlie!" in playback. . . .

Edited July 27, 2003 by jazzbo

[jlhoots]

I really appreciate Haden also. This may be a strange comparison, but he sort of reminds me of

Wilbur Ware on one side & William Parker on the other.

Also his Liberation Music Orchestra should not be overlooked.

[shrugs]

As Long As There's Music......

[kh1958]

In addition to that great duet recording with Hampton Hawes, Soapsuds, Soapsuds, his duet with Ornette, is another highlight.

[jazz1]

May I ask what Haden you've heard?

lots, but maybe not the good ones

[David Williams]

Cop-out. So, for example?

Two with/by Haden I'm particularly glad to have : Ornette's 'Change Of The Century' and Haden/Metheny's 'Beyond The Missouri Sky'. Have you heard those?

[DrJ]

Since generally people talk less about more recent recordings when discussing artists, I'll put in a plug for two modern classics on which Haden is an integral player:

1. The first Quartet West album, titled simply QUARTET WEST (Verve). Ernie Watts, Alan Broadbent, and Billy Higgins. Nobody should be able to sleep at night without this one in their collection.

2. Geri Allen Trio LIVE AT THE VILLAGE VANGUARD (DIW). Geri, Haden, Motian, all in top form. See above.

I love the Wilbur Ware comparison made above - YES, in terms of fullness of tone, of a tendency to (thankfully) dwell in the bass range of the bass. Much more adventurous harmonically, of course, but there is a clear lineage. Doug Watkins comes to mind as well - I doubt he was an actual influence on Haden, but there is a similarity in the "I'm a bass player so I'll play the bass" sensibility and in that huge ripe tone.

Edited July 27, 2003 by DrJ

[JSngry]

jazz1, I wasn't being sarcastic when I asked you what you WEREN'T hearing in Haden. I was genuinely curious. Maybe you're looking for something that's not there. But there is plenty meat in his playing - great tone (an understatement!), great time, great swing, great lyricism, as well as a rural, "hillbilly" influence that is VERY real and might account for why he and Ornette (another cat who at his roots is about as "country" as you can get, and beautifully so!) gelled so well together.

If you're looking for flash or ultra boppish drive ala P.C., Haden's not your man. He speakshis own language in his own voice. But it is a mighty strong voice, and a language that speaks to many. If you don't "get" it, don't sweat it. But please - be careful with that word "overrated". That's a VERY loaded term.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

I very much like Charlie Haden: his sound, his compositions, his bands, but I have heard the criticism (and I think it is not without merit) that Haden has only one solo that he plays on everything. I know one guy who doesn't want to hear Haden so much that he excised his solos from a tape he made for himself. That's going a bit too far, in my opinion.

Mike

[Guest Chaney]

Since we'll no doubt manage to list every recording that Haden's been on, let me ( ) plug the series "The Montreal Tapes", all recorded at the Festival International de Jazz de Montreal - those that I have - there are others (?):

Haden with Geri Allen and Paul Motian - recorded July 1, 1989

Haden with Don Cherry and Ed Blackwell - recorded July 2, 1989 (very playful)

Haden with Gonzalo Rubalcaba and Paul Motion - recorded July 3, 1989 (a favorite)

Haden with Egberto Gismonti - recorded July 6, 1989

Haden with Paul Bley and Paul Motion - recorded July 7, 1989

The sound on all of these is superior (as stated above, big, ripe sound on the bass) - especially considering that they're live recordings.

Anyone fortunate enough to attend these shows? Ed?

[DrJ]

Tony, Jazzmatazz also lists an upcoming (altho under the "2003" heading, no actual release date) further recording from Montreal featuring Haden, Joe Henderson, and Al Foster!

[Guest Chaney]

Tony, Jazzmatazz also lists an upcoming (altho under the "2003" heading, no actual release date) further recording from Montreal featuring Haden, Joe Henderson, and Al Foster!

W W!

I had no idea. Thanks!

[bertrand]

The Ballad Of The Fallen (w/ arrangements by Carla Bley) is an absolute masterpiece, not just for Haden's playing, but also for many of the sidemen (Steve Slagle etc.) and especially Dewey Redman, who is just brilliant on La Pasionara.

I was lucky to hear this group in July 1985 at the Vitrolles Festival near Marseille, France. It was a 12-piece band, but the Carla Bley half of the group was replaced by other musicians (Ken McIntyre, Jim Pepper, Amina Claudine Myers, Craig Harris, Baikida Carroll). No Don Cherry either. The group was a lot less tight than on the record, although they played the same tunes. Essentially, they played the heads, then each solist got a 10-15 minute spot where they sometimes went into totally unrelated areas (Craig Harris especially). However, Dewey's solo was simply amazing. It was airy, dancing, just plain made you feel good to be alive. I ran into someone who saw the group a few days later, and he said Dewey was good at that concert, but concurred that his solo at Vitrolles was mind-blowing. I sure wish I had a tape of that concert to be able to revisit it. It almost didn't happen because Haden was very ill.

They also played in the early nineties at the Duke Ellington School in D.C., with material from Dream Keeper (a much weaker record). This concert was super-tightly arranged, and really blew my mind. Another one I would love to revisit.

Bertrand.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Very much disagree about Dream Keeper - maybe that's because I've heard it done 3 or 4 times live (I've only heard BOTF done live once). But even disregarding the live shows, the record is wonderful - I get chills now even just thinking about the fifth movement of the suite, as the children's choir hits this amazing chord on the line "Only the shadow" - the first and final movements have similar points.

For those who are not familiar, Carla Bley's "Dream Keeper" suite was inspired by an incredibly powerful poem by Langston Hughes called "As I Grew Older" which is set to music and sung at four points during the 17-minute performance. In between this are various folk pieces from South America, Central America, and Spain - and improvised solos, too.

I would rank this album as one of the best of the 1990s. As BOTF is one of the best of the 1980s. (I get chills when Don Cherry enters on "Silence" too.)

Mike

[Free For All]

I get chills now even just thinking about the fifth movement

(I get chills when Don Cherry enters on "Silence" too.)

Gee, Mike, I hope you're not coming down with something!

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Definitely not! Chills are the highest rating any music can get from me. That's stuff that penetrates right to the core and creates an irrefutable physical reaction.

Mike

[bertrand]

I see that Dream Keeper will need to be revisited by me in the next few days.

The live show was definitely great, so maybe I did not listen attentively enough.

Bertrand.

[Joe G]

Some more recommended recordings with Haden: Metheny's Rejoicing, a trio date with Haden and Billy Higgins. Very dark and beautiful. Scofield's Grace Under Pressure, with Joey Baron and Bill Frisell. Again, that deep tone and time-feel of Charlie's is well displayed. Sco's Time On My Hands, with Lovano and DeJonette is great, too.

[Shrdlu]

Jazz1, don't be afraid to speak up, if you have an opinion. Actually, you have voiced precisely what I have always thought about him. He's obviously a good bassist, but I have never understood why all the fuss is made about him.

A problem with jazz is that there is often an "official position" about a given player, and if you dare to disagree, then you feel like a truckload of bricks has been dropped on you.

But each individual has a right to their own opinion. My opinion is just mine, and is only one person's opinion. So, if anyone disagrees with me, that's no problem.

[.:.impossible]

I feel like Charlie Haden is very spiritually connected to the music he is involved with. His roots go deeper than jazz, or hillbilly Arkansas, for that matter.

Many of you realize that I am not as well-listened as most that post on this board, so it goes without saying that I haven't heard everything that Haden has done. I haven't even heard everything that is critically acclaimed that Haden has done. The music that I have heard, however, is that of a non-quantifiable degree.

I, for one, appreciate his calm-natured approach to the bass. He isn't one to overplay his part. If anything, I find him in the details. He seems to fit into spaces that I otherwise wouldn't have noticed.

In response to the notion that Haden has one solo that he always tends to revisit, I say "Listen to 'Ida Lupino' from the Montreal recording with Paul Bley and Paul Motian." This is one instance where he really creates his own space. Miles and miles of it.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Iowa, you mean.