John Patton Mosaic Select: What's in, What's Out?

[JSngry]

Ive always dug the organjazz, but I've learned more about the finer points of it by listening to the experts here. Yeah, it's music first & instrument second, but at what point does developing a better discernment about the particularities of the instrument enhance the ability to hear the finer points of the music? At some, I'm sure.

I know I hear things in tenor players that most non-players don't, & it only enhances my appreciation (or disdain) for the music the player's making. The goal is definitely expression, but it's done through craft. Balancing the expansion of one's grasp of both craft & expression is a good thing, no?

Mr. Yannow's little bit of passive-agressive drama is ok with me (it's just one form of drama among many found here), but really dude, are you saying that you can't learn more than you already know about something you've already heard? If that works for you, fine, but...

When it comes to some things that some people say, I ain't listening too close, because I already done heard all that. But when somebody hits on something I don't already know about something that I know I like, even a little, I'm taking heed and paying notes.

Yearnin' Learnin'

[danasgoodstuff]

I think, for once, Clem got to the crux of the matter, i.e. disinterest masquerading as analysis isbogus and anyone who does it deserves to be called on it, preferably politely, but if not too bad... Mr. Yanow ain't the only one, some of our regulars do it too, I know I have, but in the end it's BOGUS period (no elipses)

[robertoart]

BIg John Patton seems to be carelessly and ignorantly dismissed in most of the sources that are readily avaliable references, (ie they're on the shelf at Borders). One 'very informed' writer say's everything you need to know about Patton's music can be discerned from the first six minutes of 'Along Came John'.

Another writer, is it Richard Cook or Ben Watson, (can't remember offhand, it's in a history of Blue Note book), says that as the music changed in the sixties Patton went right on playing R&B grease regardless. Bullshit!!!!

Difference in taste is one thing, but being ignorant of the musics references is another. It seems that to the people that get paid to put together these 'encyclopidias' there is just the standard line that Jimmy Smith was usurped by Larry Young and everything else is peripheral to that.

[Guest the mommy]

to repeat myself but i little differently-

i don't think yanow needs to HEAR the subtle differences that a truly knowledgeable person would to be able to write a short basic review. i am sure he can still hear if the music is GOOD or BAD to him without inherently having a clue why mcgriff is different than holmes.

as chuck said-it is all music. we all have ears and brains.

thats what people, i assume, are going to AMG for-for the "basics". though i will admit for some bands and genres you can find some good in depth stuff.

jazz is not one of these genres. at least not on a regular basis....

[Soul Stream]

there is just the standard line that Jimmy Smith was usurped by Larry Young and everything else is peripheral to that.

This is my main point. Thanks for putting it in words freelancer.

If your only points of reference are Jimmy Smith and Larry Young, then we're just not going to agree on anything.

And Jim Sangrey brings up the best point of all (as usual). If we can't get together and learn something new from each other than what's the point of being here? Are we suppose to "bow to all that is Yanow" now that you've logged in, or can we drop the bs and talk about music. I'm sure there's plenty of music you can hip us to. I've got a good knowledge of organ jazz, but wouldn't put myself up against many here when it comes to jazz in general. I love jazz and love learning more about the artists and albums that people around here are enthusiastic about.

[connoisseur series500]

Here where we go again, Ha Ha. No point me even commenting on half of what is being said. Differences of opinions should be able to be expressed without insults. But since that seems difficult for some, I'm visiting this forum much less than I'd originally planned to.

I think that's unfortunate.

Agreed.

I like Yanow's comments, and I like the AMG guide. But SS is correct in his comments. I'm not a musician, but I hear special things in BJP's music that I don't hear anywhere else. I've always been dismayed by what I viewed as Scott's casual reviews of BJP and many other jazz organ dates. It makes me wonder whether he has listened to them more than once.

Scott: please stick around. You do have things to say. SS is very knowledgeable in his area, and I did not detect any personal criticism, or at least nothing that couldn't be worked out through decent dialogue. Yes, Clem can't seem to write a post without putting someone else down, but that's Clem. You already have him on "ignore," right?

[connoisseur series500]

(hi Connie, xo!! Pls ignore me, I thrive on it)

I don't have you on "ignore." I have never personally used that function.

Yanow, apparently has you on "ignore."

[sjarrell]

The Critics Speak Out on Clementine!!!

"At his early peak."

-- Scott Yanow, AMG

"Intense yet always soulful."

-- Scott Yanow, AMG

"Memorable."

-- Scott Yanow, AMG

"Swings hard."

-- Scott Yanow, AMG

"[His] voices play with such consistent enthusiasm..."

-- Scott Yanow, AMG

Highly recommended.

-- Scott Yanow, AMG

You left out the bit about none of the tunes becoming standards...

[.:.impossible]

i'm with soulstream here. i would much rather read his take, or alfredson's take, on big john or baby face. if i'm reading about either of them, i am looking for information. real information. and key elements of each musician's personality to listen for. yes, i value many of the board members opinions, based on actual, in-depth discussion. opinion does account for something, but... if i'm trying to find out if i'm going to like the music or not, i'll listen to an online sample, or better yet, download a full track from emusic.com for a fraction of a dollar. whatever you think of the qualities of mp3, i'd reconsider their value. a song is worth a thousand words.

[paul secor]

Ive always dug the organjazz, but I've learned more about the finer points of it by listening to the experts here. Yeah, it's music first & instrument second, but at what point does developing a better discernment about the particularities of the instrument enhance the ability to hear the finer points of the music? At some, I'm sure.

I know I hear things in tenor players that most non-players don't, & it only enhances my appreciation (or disdain) for the music the player's making. The goal is definitely expression, but it's done through craft. Balancing the expansion of one's grasp of both craft & expression is a good thing, no?

Yearnin' Learnin'

Cogent post, and I agree with it except for one exception. Sometimes musicians can get caught up in some of those "particularities of the instrument" which "enhance the ability to hear the finer points of the music", and miss something in the quality of the music itself that might be more evident to a nonmusician. It can happen sometimes.

[paul secor]

Paul & John-- so what? We're talking Yanow & others inadequacy as listening artist, 'critic' manque, not his work as a musician. Assuming Watrous were able to write & was broadly cultured enough to write well, none of what he knows need, a priori, get in the way. (Did he write notes to Thad/Mel Mosaic? Think so. We can say the same about Loren Schoenberg, Dick Katz, Artur Schnabel, etc etc-- see some old musicians-who-write thread. (Paul Griffiths in modern classical.))

Ya'll can be "nice guys" (not you two specifically) & equivocate this/that but the plain fact is the dude

is bullshittin' or delusional.

Whatever the answer, what the hell do you need him for? Either you dig the sounds or don't but don't lower yourselves or anyone else who might want to know more: yearnin' learnin' indeed.

Also, ya'll who came up in the AMG era literally don't know what you missed, or why many of us feel it to be unnecessary on one hand, & a counterproductive pedagogical (sic) tool on the other.

Finally, to defend musicians music-- it's a legitimate genre, & many of ya'll know what I mean. it ain't my bag but it exists in all sortsa areas. I'm cool w/anyone not digging it but if someone calls you on it, ya'll better buck up & get serious about goddamn taxonomy & be able to recognize what's shit & what's Shiner, & why the one tastes better, or different, from the other.

fuckin' clementine

clem -

Wasn't writing about Mr. Yanow - never pay any attention to his writing.

I was just agreeing with the gist of what Jim wrote and was commenting that sometimes - sometimes - musicians writing about music can get caught up aspects of technical things, facility, etc. - things that nonmusicians might - might - not pick up on, and lose sight/sound of some other, perhaps more important, aspects of the music - perhaps even miss some of the essence of the music.

I've learned from musicians on this Forum, but I've learned at least as much from nonmusicians, including yourself. (I'm making the assumption here - perhaps wrongly - that you're out in the audience with most of the rest of us.)

[connoisseur series500]

i don't ignore you either, Connie: too much fun when you poke at me, poke poke poke.

Better than stab, stab, stab.

[JSngry]

Ya know, it's just as fucked up to not be able to see the trees for the forest as it is to not be able to see the forest for the trees.

[paul secor]

Ya know, it's just as fucked up to not be able to see the trees for the forest as it is to not be able to see the forest for the trees.

Agreed. Didn't mean to put down musicians' opinions in any way. Thought that I was careful to do that, but I guess that I wasn't. Just wanted to point out that the two sides (or more) exist.

[JSngry]

Also, ya'll who came up in the AMG era literally don't know what you missed, or why many of us feel it to be unnecessary on one hand, & a counterproductive pedagogical (sic) tool on the other.

Exactly. Anybody who's worked in a corporate environment eventually figures out that most policy/procedure manuals aren't written to get the job done right, but just to get it done. And that the people who religiously abide by such manuals aren't living to get right, but just to get (which begs the question - why such an unwillingness/fear/whatever to depend on somebody else to provide for your validation?). It's a living, I suppose, but it sure ain't a life, not in my book.

Nothing personal, much love to all (sincerely) in spite of, but there it is.

[JSngry]

Ya know, it's just as fucked up to not be able to see the trees for the forest as it is to not be able to see the forest for the trees.

Agreed. Didn't mean to put down musicians' opinions in any way. Thought that I was careful to do that, but I guess that I wasn't. Just wanted to point out that the two sides (or more) exist.

No man, you're cool. I hear you, believe me. I've had more than a lifetime's worth of ears-glazing-over conversations w/players who can only hear the technique(s). ARRRGH!

I feel sorry for those folks when I'm not plotting ways to stick my foot up their ass. I understand/dig craft, but it's a tool, not an end. And if you can't recognize that about the work of others, odds are you don't recognize it in yourself.

Life is short. Play hard, but more importantly, play well.

[Chuck Nessa]

Lots of snotty stuff in this thread and little clarity.

Why does trashing someone raise someone else.

We all need to attempt an impersonation of adulthood.

Edit to add: No critic understands the time needed to properly prepare a kazoo reed.

Edited October 20, 2006 by Chuck Nessa

[robertoart]

In the beginning there was Jimmy Smith, who begat Larry Young, who helped begat 'fusion', (with some of his 'brothers'). Larry's other 'bruthas' survived by eating the crumbs off of Father Jimmy's table and begat 'nuthin', their music was repetative and harmonically unsophisticated. After the 'fusion' bus left for the other part of town without him, Larry had to return to the table, where he tried out some 'disco'.

So it is written.

[Epithet]

c'mon, individual, even eccentric taste is cool but there ought be no goddamn quarter for anti-intellectualism, which is what Yanow is an example of. again, if organ ain't a language he wants to learn OK, but don't fake it. (I'll use the baroque classical analogy again if anyone wants to talk about it.)

If you could indulge me with a few words about that (viz. the analogy) it'd be ace.

[JSngry]

Edit to add: No critic understands the time needed to properly prepare a kazoo reed.

Now see, that's what I'm talking about, learning something new. I never knew that kazoos had reeds. Puts everything in a new perspective!

Edited October 21, 2006 by JSngry

[Ron S]

Edit to add: No critic understands the time needed to properly prepare a kazoo reed.

Now see, that's what I'm talking about, learning something new. I never knew that kazoos had reeds. Puts everything in a new perspective!

Chuck must be talking about the high-end models used by the pros, unlike those tissue paper toys we had as kids.

Compare and contrast:

[Soul Stream]

In the beginning there was Jimmy Smith, who begat Larry Young, who helped begat 'fusion', (with some of his 'brothers'). Larry's other 'bruthas' survived by eating the crumbs off of Father Jimmy's table and begat 'nuthin', their music was repetative and harmonically unsophisticated. After the 'fusion' bus left for the other part of town without him, Larry had to return to the table, where he tried out some 'disco'.

So it is written.

This whole thing is just an ignorant generalization.

[JSngry]

I think it's also quite tongue-in-cheek.

[Soul Stream]

I think it's also quite tongue-in-cheek.

....sorry freelancer....guess I can't tell who's friend or foe anymore on this thread.

[RDK]

Ya know, it's just as fucked up to not be able to see the trees for the forest as it is to not be able to see the forest for the trees.

It's all cool unless one chooses to live in the desert.