what the f*ck happened to popular black music?

[7/4]

Rap/hip hop had a golden age. 86-93. By and large, its over and Kenny Drew Jr. missed it. Thankfully, De La Soul still do what they do...

I love De La myself, and would point to them (not forgetting the contributions of Prince Paul) as central to my own personal "golden age" of rap.

But it's funny how most "golden ages" seem to coincide with the observer's teens and twenties.

I know for a fact that the golden age of punk happened when I was 15-17.

The golden age of fusion happened ended after Holdworth started using synths.

[JSngry]

(and if "omniverity" is not a word, let's make it one!)

Do we have to?

No.

[Quincy]

But it's funny how most "golden ages" seem to coincide with the observer's teens and twenties.

Jazzbo must at least be in his 90s then.

[BruceH]

(and if "omniverity" is not a word, let's make it one!)

Do we have to?

No.

Whew! Thank god.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Rap/hip hop had a golden age. 86-93. By and large, its over and Kenny Drew Jr. missed it. Thankfully, De La Soul still do what they do...

I love De La myself, and would point to them (not forgetting the contributions of Prince Paul) as central to my own personal "golden age" of rap.

But it's funny how most "golden ages" seem to coincide with the observer's teens and twenties.

I know for a fact that the golden age of punk happened when I was 15-17.

And the golden age of the gospel quartets occurred when I was between 0 and 7. The golden age of Rhythm & Blues (original style) also occurred at that time. So did the golden age of Bebop.

MG

[jazzypaul]

Mr. Drew, I do believe that what you have said was biased and destructive. Many, if not most jazz musicians appreciate bluegrass. Isn't that "ignorant" music? I think that the art form and society of hip-hop is just as valid as the "higher" art forms.

Anyone who has ever heard Sam Bush would never accuse bluegrass of being "ignorant" music.

[JSngry]

(and if "omniverity" is not a word, let's make it one!)

Do we have to?

No.

Whew! Thank god.

You don't have to.

[jazzypaul]

In terms of youth: I think rap is on a downslide. Jam bands could be the youth music of our time. Maybe it's where I live, but when the popular been-around-awhile jam bands come through they completely sell out every night.

1. There aren't any black people at jams shows. (well, maybe at a ratio of 10,000 to 1)

2. Look at albums sales. I would LOVE to believe that jam music is approaching mainstream, but its simply now where near being true. Take the biggest non-Dead jam band in the world, Phish. 50 Cent's last album sold more than their entire catalog. Jam is for white college kids, usually rich white college kids.

1. Whose fault is that? It's certainly not the fault of the jam bands in question. Check out the Disco Biscuits and get back to me.

2. Look at concert revenues. Phish played a show to 600,000 people with no one else on the bill. Insofar as the "jam is for white college kids..." bit, that's the most ethnocentric crap I've heard in a long time. I will do my best not to offend and just cut myself off right here...

[johnagrandy]

1. There aren't any black people at jams shows. (well, maybe at a ratio of 10,000 to 1)

2. Look at albums sales. I would LOVE to believe that jam music is approaching mainstream, but its simply now where near being true. Take the biggest non-Dead jam band in the world, Phish. 50 Cent's last album sold more than their entire catalog. Jam is for white college kids, usually rich white college kids.

It's not that bad, at least not in SF. The Greyboy Allstars couple months ago ... a decent scattering of African-Americans. After all, it's kind of Denson's band. And with the current trend of cross-pollination of Southern roots music (especially New Orleans) into jam, should see that trend continue on the rise.

Yeah, most people think of jam as Dead derived: Phil Lesh and Friends (with whom Sco is playing with in May in SF), Phish, etc ... but there's a whole 'nother jam genre that does not derive from The Dead. Not at all. Derives from funk, soul, jazz, blues, roots, folk, some rock (mainly grunge).

Edited April 11, 2006 by johnagrandy

[md655321]

In terms of youth: I think rap is on a downslide. Jam bands could be the youth music of our time. Maybe it's where I live, but when the popular been-around-awhile jam bands come through they completely sell out every night.

1. There aren't any black people at jams shows. (well, maybe at a ratio of 10,000 to 1)

2. Look at albums sales. I would LOVE to believe that jam music is approaching mainstream, but its simply now where near being true. Take the biggest non-Dead jam band in the world, Phish. 50 Cent's last album sold more than their entire catalog. Jam is for white college kids, usually rich white college kids.

1. Whose fault is that? It's certainly not the fault of the jam bands in question. Check out the Disco Biscuits and get back to me.

2. Look at concert revenues. Phish played a show to 600,000 people with no one else on the bill. Insofar as the "jam is for white college kids..." bit, that's the most ethnocentric crap I've heard in a long time. I will do my best not to offend and just cut myself off right here...

1. Im not saying its anyones fault. Just pointing it out. And what the hell do the Dico Biscuits have to do with changing this fact?

2a. Phish never played for 600,000. Most they ever did was about 90k for Big Cypress for 99. Take concert revenues and cd revenues and add them up. Rap DWARFS jam music. Its not even debateable.

2. Jam is for white college kids. Ive seen Phish, ive been to every Bonnaroo, ive seen Robert Randolph, Karl Denson, moe, MMW, Umphreys, Mule and the like dozens of times. You know who is at the shows? White college kids. If me saying that is the most ethnocentric thing you have ever heard, you have never had an American History class.

[johnagrandy]

2. Jam is for white college kids. Ive seen Phish, ive been to every Bonnaroo, ive seen Robert Randolph, Karl Denson, moe, MMW, Umphreys, Mule and the like dozens of times. You know who is at the shows? White college kids. If me saying that is the most ethnocentric thing you have ever heard, you have never had an American History class.

I think the problem is definition of jam ...

When ropeadope's touring entourage came through SF last, definitely wasn't many rich white college kids in the audience. Avg age was above 30. Totally mixed crowd: race, ethnicity, gender, dreds, skulls, substance habits, etc. Probably highest % were Deadheads, but still a low %. But like I said, maybe that's just the SF scene.

Rap ... it's a tough exercise divorcing commercial rap from money. If you're not black, and you want in on that scene, you better flaunt money (clothes, cars, jewelry, expensive drugs) ... especially if you want a girl ... so it's definitely about money.

How is jam about money? You dress like a slob, have shit for wheels, smoke dope ...

Edited April 12, 2006 by johnagrandy

[Chuck Nessa]

Foolish argument. Think about it. This isn't really about music. It is about youth sociology and markets.

Edited April 12, 2006 by Chuck Nessa

[.:.impossible]

But it's funny how most "golden ages" seem to coincide with the observer's teens and twenties.

hehe, almost exactly what I thought about posting in response there.

I was nine years old in 1986. I hadn't even wrecked my first car by 1993. Well, that's not true. The golden age I'm referring to is not nostalgic. I still discover music NOW that happened THEN, and it is new to me. Same goes for most of the music I listen to. I'm not exactly discovering new genres here. I'm usually a few years behind, which I have no problem admitting. Usually decades actually.

It was meant as a joke, to be honest. Should have used a winking smiley face or a hehe I guess.

[Adam]

2. Jam is for white college kids. Ive seen Phish, ive been to every Bonnaroo, ive seen Robert Randolph, Karl Denson, moe, MMW, Umphreys, Mule and the like dozens of times. You know who is at the shows? White college kids. If me saying that is the most ethnocentric thing you have ever heard, you have never had an American History class.

I think the problem is definition of jam ...

When ropeadope's touring entourage came through SF last, definitely wasn't many rich white college kids in the audience. Avg age was above 30. Totally mixed crowd: race, ethnicity, gender, dreds, skulls, substance habits, etc. Probably highest % were Deadheads, but still a low %. But like I said, maybe that's just the SF scene.

How is jam about money? You dress like a slob, have shit for wheels, smoke dope ...

White college kids and whites who have graduated from college, plus dopeheads. That sounds about right.

[johnagrandy]

Foolish argument. Think about it. This isn't really about music. It is about youth sociology and markets.

Have you attended any of these shows or listened to any of these recordings ?

Bands like Galactic, Greyboy Allstars, 20th Congress, Garage A Trois, MMW, Govt. Mule, Critters Buggin', etc. are all about music. Some of the most talented musicians in the world play/played in these bands -- a lot of them with serious genre-hopping chops and deep roots in jazz. This is a generation of players who had the talent but not the desire to prove themselves in serious jazz circles before venturing into other realms. Some of them in fact did prove themselves (like John Ellis in the T.Monk competition), while some of them didn't bother even though they could have.

They had a maelstrom of diverse influences coming up, saw how confining serious jazz had become (with every note you play over-analyzed by the critics in terms of 50+ years of historical context -- what's the point ? ), and chose to express their take on life and our world in a different manner and make an impact in a new direction.

I remember seeing Hunter 12+ years ago when he was surviving off $4 gigs: he was playing Monk, Mingus, Young, James Brown, Marley, Led Zep, Nirvana ... the list is endless ... and it was all good.

Commercial rap in contrast has far less to do with music as a societal force than it does with image fabrication and materialistically-based hierarchical promotion of vacuous egos to those who seek the same.

In a very real sense, commercial rap has become the epitome of capitalism.

[Alexander]

In a very real sense, commercial rap has become the epitome of capitalism.

I doubt very much that most commerical rappers would disagree with you on this point.

[JSngry]

I suspect they'd take it as a high compliment.

[.:.impossible]

-_-

[md655321]

In a very real sense, commercial rap has become the epitome of capitalism.

I doubt very much that most commerical rappers would disagree with you on this point.

Yet another example of how capitalism is the true source of moral ills in our society.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

In a very real sense, commercial rap has become the epitome of capitalism.

I doubt very much that most commerical rappers would disagree with you on this point.

Yet another example of how capitalism is the true source of moral ills in our society.

Booker T Washington was a capitalist.

MG

[md655321]

In a very real sense, commercial rap has become the epitome of capitalism.

I doubt very much that most commerical rappers would disagree with you on this point.

Yet another example of how capitalism is the true source of moral ills in our society.

Booker T Washington was a capitalist.

MG

Ok.

[BruceH]

While I agree with some of what Kenny Drew Jr. says, I get the distinct impression that he would come down hard on the Velvet Underground's first album...if it had sold a lot of copies.

[Alexander]

While I agree with some of what Kenny Drew Jr. says, I get the distinct impression that he would come down hard on the Velvet Underground's first album...if it had sold a lot of copies.

No, no, no...The VU is *classic* rock. Songs about heroin and sexual perversion are only a problem if they're performed by people under 25.

Edited April 12, 2006 by Alexander