Jazz musicians who play out of tune

[tatifan]

lots to get into here but first, Tati, have you played in other than equal temperament? for personal elucidation, i mean, i know-- unfortunately-- it's now a heavy uphill battle professionally.

I played the cello growing up, and dealt with (with varying degrees of success) what was in tune playing with the piano (assuming IT is "in tune"), and with like and differing families of instruments, orchestras, etc. I work as a pianist for Lynn Harrell's studio at Rice Univ., and have seen his amazing ear for subtle intonational adjustments in action. He can demonstrate how playing a note with a different coloration and intensity can completely change the perception of intonation, and how it depending on the musical context, a repeated pitch in a work can (and often should) be adjusted based on harmonic context. I can't even begin to do justice (in this description) to his knowledge and effective use of it, both in his own performing and in teaching.

[mikeweil]

All of them? -_-

[mikeweil]

lots to get into here but first, Tati, have you played in other than equal temperament? for personal elucidation, i mean, i know-- unfortunately-- it's now a heavy uphill battle professionally.

kyle gann has an interesting little page--

historical tuning

the whole A = 440 is fascinating & frustratingly abitrary too, tho' i understand why/how a consensus needed to be achieved.

Dolmetsch Lives!

xxc

Equal temperamentis a tuning system making every instrument out of tune except for octaves, because no other interval is pure!

[birdanddizzy]

Many gypsy violonists tend to play 'out of tune'

[P.L.M]

And BILLY BANG in particular, even if he is not a "gypsy" violinist.

[Larry Kart]

Among great players, I believe that the most extreme (and revealing of what's at issue) case is Von Freeman. I know some very sophisticated listeners who have never been able to get past Von's intonation, which kind of baffles me because the ambiguities and chessmaster's sense of play he creates there is utterly inseparable from an across-the-board mastery that would seem hard to deny. To put it another way, an "in-tune" Von would not be Von any more than a Lester Young who tried to play his ideas with Coleman Hawkins' tone would be Lester Young. BTW, listen to Jodie Christian comp behind Von -- the way, on his tempered instrument, that Jodie brilliantly adjusts to and plays with Von's intonational ambiguities is a good guide to how to proceed.

[AllenLowe]

well, if you're talking out of tune, try to play an old Busecher, tenor or alto - and if you can make the octaves match you're a better man than I - I heard Sonny Rollins talk about the Buescher he played on Alfie and he said,"I loved that horn but I could not get it to play in tune."

speaking of out of tune, Bill Triglia once told me that Dave Schildkraut was pissed off for some reason at the session he did with Ralph Burns and played deliberately out of tune - and sure enough, listen to that session and there's Davey playing just enough off-pitch to make the whole thing sound a little bit out of wack - but interestingly enough in Leonard Feather's Encyclopedia of Jazz poll Burns named Davey as one of his favorite saxophonists -

[tatifan]

thanks Tati-- what I meant tho' it that many people think equal temperament is misapplied to a great deal of music, even of classical & romantic periods. couple that w/the modern Steinway... bleh.

Ah, I see, that's a whole new world indeed. I've done a bit of dabbling in that area, but one has to virtually untrain one's ears to a whole musical upbringing (which is the whole point, I guess). Certainly food for thought. Personally, I have trouble adjusting to a lower A than 440, when instruments are tuned to emulate the lower pitch used at the time. Perfect pitch can be helpful, but also a nightmare........

[johnagrandy]

Interesting no one has mentioned Diz.

[Kari S]

Charlie Rouse...?

and er.... Kenny G?

[Daniel A]

To play everything slightly sharp sounds cool enough, but are there any players who consistently play everything a quarter-tone low?

If there are several horns, there's usually only room for one "Jackie McLean" in the band.

Perhaps we would all be better off if everyone just stuck to the vibes instead.

[Nate Dorward]

To play everything slightly sharp sounds cool enough, but are there any players who consistently play everything a quarter-tone low?

Plenty of singers who do!

[7/4]

To play everything slightly sharp sounds cool enough, but are there any players who consistently play everything a quarter-tone low?

Plenty of singers who do!

Yep. Quarter tones are real common in music. Hit that neutral 3rd between the major 3rd & the minor 3rd and you're singing the blues.

[Daniel A]

The consistency blues?

I wasn't thinking of "blue notes", but rather on a sadder approach on playing altogether.

[Jazz Kat]

This bassist tells me Ron Carter is flat. I don't care, I still love him.

[CJ Shearn]

I've always found especially on soprano that Wayne plays out of tune, but that adds to the playfulness and the appeal to me.

[Rooster_Ties]

On tenor or soprano, I've always thought Wayne played like there were about 14 "nearly half steps" in any given octave.

Not a complaint, but simply an observation.

Much love for Wayne here!

Edited April 11, 2006 by Rooster_Ties

[Kalo]

Hmmmn....

Maybe we should be asking which jazz musicians actually play "in tune" rather than out of it.

Is playing strictly "in tune" even jazz at all?

[Jazz Kat]

smooth jazz

[BruceH]

Hmmmn....

Maybe we should be asking which jazz musicians actually play "in tune" rather than out of it.

Is playing strictly "in tune" even jazz at all?

Good question.

One might ask much the same about playing "on the beat."

[Alexander Hawkins]

I think it's important to have a conception of right and wrong tuning.

Because if tuning was all 'right', just 'different', the music 'schools' would try to teach it.

And that would lead to even more carbon copy musicians.

Which would be great if we wanted another way to dole out certificates and official recognition, but a bit shitty if we wanted to keep producing musicians.

So, here's to 'out of tune' musicians.

[GregN]

I knew there was a reason I preferred organ jazz.

[jazzypaul]

Hmmmn....

Maybe we should be asking which jazz musicians actually play "in tune" rather than out of it.

Is playing strictly "in tune" even jazz at all?

Good question.

One might ask much the same about playing "on the beat."

Not from a drummer's perspective they wouldn't. If you drag, it doesn't swing, groove or lay in the pocket. Rushing can be a different scenario. If you rush just a hair, it gives the music some momentum. But do it too much, and nothing locks up anymore. I have no idea who would want that.

[Brandon Burke]

to the Ron Carter point:

i've never been able to tell how purposefully *off* his bowed cello was on Mal Waldron The Quest.

[Chuck Nessa]

to the Ron Carter point:

i've never been able to tell how purposefully *off* his bowed cello was on Mal Waldron The Quest.

I never had any trouble telling. :rsmile: