Jazz musicians who play out of tune

[Guy Berger]

Jackie McLean's passing made me think of this topic. Some guys who tended to play out of tune:

Jackie McLean

Charles Lloyd

[Nate Dorward]

Monk.

[Guest akanalog]

jemeel moondoc? not sure if he does it all the time, but on his album "nostalgia in times square" he sounds a bit more off on alto than mclean does to my ears. though i have a feeling bern nix on guitar wasn't necessarily in tune either on that album.

[AllenLowe]

funny, this reminds me of the time I saw Duke Jordan in concert, sometime around 1977 or so - it was at Cami Recital Hall in NYC - he had Tommy Turrentine on trumpet, who played the ENTIRE concert a quarter-tone sharp - it was weird. Nobody said anything, nobody commented, they just went through the set like nothing was wrong. At that pitch Turrentine played well, I guess you could say he was in-tune in the Bizarro world -

[Joe G]

Tuning is a very interesting subject, on which volumes have been written. Technically speaking, the only thing in tune on a conventionally tuned piano are the octaves. All the other intervals are stretched, so to speak, and basically "out of tune". The major thirds, especially, are audibly sharp. It's the system known as equal temperment, which allows a pianist to change keys at will. But that's a fixed pitch instrument, which means the player cannot alter the tuning in any real way during performance.

Horn and stringed instrument players have more leeway, and can find notes that don't exist on the piano. Miles does this on his solo to Freddie Freeloader, where the minor seventh interval he plays over the "four" chord is quite a bit flat from the pianist's m7. But is doesn't sound out of tune, because it's actually the 7th partial of the harmonic series, and so we respond to it as being "in tune". I know that's a more technical answer than what you were looking for, but I'm just making the point that there are quite a few different tuning systems, some of which can coexist if the musicians know what they're doing.

Aside from that, there are some who play out of tune momentarily for effect, and others who just don't play (or sing) in tune, I guess, because they haven't learned how (like most Americans singing Happy Birthday in a restaurant ). I was listening to some Mclean the other night, and it didn't strike me as being that far out.

...Many people think Von Freeman sounds out of tune.

[Chuck Nessa]

You can play in tune sharp and you can play in tune flat.

[Joe G]

funny, this reminds me of the time I saw Duke Jordan in concert, sometime around 1977 or so - it was at Cami Recital Hall in NYC - he had Tommy Turrentine on trumpet, who played the ENTIRE concert a quarter-tone sharp - it was weird. Nobody said anything, nobody commented, they just went through the set like nothing was wrong. At that pitch Turrentine played well, I guess you could say he was in-tune in the Bizarro world -

That kind of thing makes my hair stand on end - even more than it usually does!

[tonym]

I suppose Ornette's system of 'micro-tones' (excuse my ignorance -- I love the guy but I don't follow much of the theory behind his playing) allows him to sound 'out of tune' much of the time. Works wonderfully though.

[Nate Dorward]

I was listening to some Mclean the other night, and it didn't strike me as being that far out.

Try Left Alone '86 where on one tune (I think it was "Cat Walk") they play in unison at the return of the head--or rather, a quarter-tone apart!

[sheldonm]

You can play in tune sharp and you can play in tune flat.

you can tuna piano but you can't tuna fish!

[Robert J]

It's the system known as equal temperment, which allows a pianist to change keys at will. But that's a fixed pitch instrument, which means the player cannot alter the tuning in any real way during performance.

Some have tried

[WD45]

Ron Carter for sure.

I have always liked Jackie Mclean's sharp intonation...

[Guest akanalog]

yeah my dad used to go see ron carter a lot here in nyc and said he was often out of tune.

though for some reason my dad owns just about every ron carter LP, so it couldn't have bothered him that much.

[slide_advantage_redoux]

You can play in tune sharp and you can play in tune flat.

you can tuna piano but you can't tuna fish!

you can beat a drum, but you can't beat a ..... oh never mind.

Edited April 7, 2006 by Greg Waits

[David Williams]

Lee Konitz suggested his own tendency to play sharp was a subconscious attempt to draw attention to his playing above the rest of the band - interview in Jazz Review a couple of years ago, I think.

Edited April 7, 2006 by David Williams

[JSngry]

"Out of tune" from what?

????????????????

Massa likes us to think that there's only 12 tones and that they all gotta be in the same place at the same time. Fuck Massa. Fuck him in his mind-controlling, soul-sucking, be-where-I-say-so-you-can-do-what-I-say ass.

The only thing that's "out of tune" is something that is not where it's felt/meant to be.

[7/4]

Massa likes us to think that there's only 12 tones and that they all gotta be in the same place at the same time. Fuck Massa. Fuck him in his mind-controlling, soul-sucking, be-where-I-say-so-you-can-do-what-I-say ass.

Damm straight.

[7/4]

do ya'll know the Stuart Isacoff book "Temperament"? i'm sure there lots of more theoretical treatements out there, not to mention other non-western European musical systems/traditions...

Met him at a concert a few years ago. Know that part of the book where he describes Michael Harrison's retuned piano? I took raga class in that studio, I have even played that piano a bit.

I should look at that book again, it's been a while.

[tatifan]

When I think someone is out of tune, it's not that this note is flat and this is sharp, but if there's a overall tendency to play everything sharp or flat. I used to find Miles Davis fairly consistently under what I hear as the pitch, or the pitch of the piano and/or other players. Strangely, I don't hear this as much now. I guess it's a certainly coloration of the sound that makes it sound right.

On the other hand, there's an early Hank Mobley Blue Note session (in the Mosaic box, but I need to refresh my memory on which one), where it sounds to me like Mobley never tuned his instrument to the piano. It's odd, because I think his intonation is pretty centered compared to many. I do find McLean on the sharp side as an overall tendency, and I guess I'm not the only one. Is it right for him? You bet!

I'm a (classical) pianist by profession, and I play with MANY string players who tune a bit sharp to the piano. Some are aware of it, many just want that extra brightness and brilliance to the overall sound. Perhaps we're not talking a large amount, but few of them tune on the LOW side of the pitch. One wrinkle in this is that tuning a stringed instument in EXACT perfect 5ths will make the lowest string FLAT to a piano, because of the tempered piano tuning. Perhaps some of this is due to the fact that orchestras tend to tune a cent or two sharp of the A=440 "standard", and they get used to this.

Overall, I find that wind players tend to tune a bit lower, and their intonation tends to settle beneath the piano pitch. I know this some of this is OT, but I'm just trying to show that lots of factors besides simple bending of scalar tones and expressive use of "blue" notes in jazz, and one's overall setup of the instrument in relation to one's musical collaborators has a big influence in what comes out.

[Chuck Nessa]

Emphasised overtones can shift perceptions of the tonal center.

[Fer Urbina]

Read somewhere that Harry James-Ziggy Elman-Chris Griffin used to drive Benny Goodman nuts because they used to tune up slightly sharper than the rest of the band to make their sound "brighter".

Also, the trombones at the end of Glenn Miller's "In the mood", slightly flat, perhaps?

Top off my head Jimmie Blanton playing arco with Ellington, Jackie Paris in his LP for Time Records.

F

[Guy Berger]

"Out of tune" from what?

????????????????

Massa likes us to think that there's only 12 tones and that they all gotta be in the same place at the same time. Fuck Massa. Fuck him in his mind-controlling, soul-sucking, be-where-I-say-so-you-can-do-what-I-say ass.

The only thing that's "out of tune" is something that is not where it's felt/meant to be.

Woah woah woah. I did not intend "out of tune" as a negative characteristic but rather as a description. Jackie and Charles are two of my favorite saxophonists.

Guy

[JSngry]

Ok, and the "anger" was in no way directed at you.

But even as a description, "out of tune" still implies that there is one "tune" to be "out of". T'aint so, sez I.

[Chad.mundt]

Michael Moore??

[Kalo]

You can play in tune sharp and you can play in tune flat.

What Chuck said. I've always liked McLean's "sharp" playing, but I have one musician friend in particular who hates it. I've always felt that if it sounds good, it isgood.

Lee Konitz suggested his own tendency to play sharp was a subconscious attempt to draw attention to his playing above the rest of the band - interview in Jazz Review a couple of years ago, I think.

A friend who studied with Konitz told me that Konitz was very pissed about a Brazilian session that he played on where they artificially corrected his pitch for the final product. He plays a bit sharp on purpose: that's his sound.

Clem mentioned Kyle Gann. It was reading him in the Village Voice that hipped me to the amazing history of tuning in Western culture. Having played in a South East Asian music ensemble in college, (not to mention playing and or listening to jazz, blues, rock, country, etc.) I already knew that there were many ways of being in tune, but Gann was the first writer I read who really layed it all out there.

Even Bach played in "Well" rather than "Equal" temperament, contrary to popular belief.

Fascinating subject...