2006 MLB Thread

[Dan Gould]

Yeah, I do like Torre and think he should be credited with a terrific job during the regular season when the team lost two major players for most of the season and the pitching rotation was often in a state of shambles. Not to rub it in Dan, but the 5 game sweep at Fenway that catapulted the Yanks to the division win is the one highlight that will always be remembered when recalling this otherwise disappointing season.

No problem, Marty. The difference between Yankee fans and Red Sox fans is that if the shoe were on the other foot, we would be re-living and celebrating a five game sweep for the next ten years, regardless of getting bounced in the first round. But for Yankee fans, its all about the rings and so the sweep is a nice memory but its still a terribly disappointing season.

[Dan Gould]

Very interesting column on why Piniella is the wrong man for the job, from Dan Graziano of the Newark Star-Ledger:

http://www.nj.com/columns/ledger/graziano/....xml&coll=1

Piniella is the last guy who should manage these Yanks

Monday, October 09, 2006

Oh, no. This isn't right at all.

Don't get me wrong. It's kind of nice to see the old man alive and grumpy. It had been so long since George Steinbrenner showed any irrational fury that we were all starting to, you know, kind of think the worst.

But this is no way to wake up.

The very idea of impulsively firing Joe Torre and even more impulsively replacing him with Lou Piniella is so wrong in so many ways that it still sounds like a joke. "Oh, man. If they lose to the Tigers, George is gonna be so mad, he'll fire Torre and bring in Piniella." That's supposed to be a joke about Steinbrenner. It's not supposed to be the thing that actually happens.

Torre's team completely quit on him in the final three games against the Tigers. It was embarrassing and unprecedented. Never before has a Torre team looked so lifeless in so many important games, and he should feel responsible and embarrassed about it.

It's even possible to reach the conclusion that he should be fired.

But if he's to be fired, it shouldn't be like this -- not right away, with the wounds still so fresh and so little thought having been put into it. And certainly not for Lou Piniella, who sounds like the right guy for the job only if you have no idea what it's like in the Yankees clubhouse.

Yankee fans, like Steinbrenner, want a tail-kicker in the manager's office. They believe the pathetic Division Series fold job they just saw would have been impossible under Piniella, who is a fiery tantrum-thrower.

But the key to the Yankees' success under Torre has been the manager's ability to maintain calm. He has established a culture of excellence in the Bronx by not throwing tantrums, because he believes, correctly, that the veteran players he's managing wouldn't respond to them. Lou Piniella is a better in-game tactician than Torre is, but he's just as hard on a bullpen, and he's ill-suited to the current Yankee situation.

Piniella's Tampa Bay teams played hard because he yelled at them, but they were kids who needed to be pushed. His Seattle and Cincinnati teams won because they were groups he helped select -- versatile players and interchangeable lineups that he could mold the way he wanted to.

The Yankees build their teams differently. They bring in stars, heedless of the way they might all get or not get along, and they expect it to work because of the money they spend and the talent they have. There's not enough flexibility on this Yankee roster for Piniella to shine, and taking it apart and building one that would maximize his talents would take years. Years, quite possibly, of not making the playoffs.

So there's all that, and then there's this:

Alex Rodriguez doesn't deserve as much.

Yeah, that's right. All of you out there calling for Torre's head. Have you thought of that?

In the first eight years Torre managed the Yankees, they went to the World Series six times and won four of them. In the three years since Rodriguez brought his mopey, self-centered personality onto the scene, they haven't gone to one World Series. And brutal performances by Rodriguez have been major reasons for the exits.

So now they're going to bring in Rodriguez's favorite manager?

The guy Rodriguez calls late at night to talk about his hitting problems and to whom he absurdly credited his game-winning home run against the Braves back in June?

Alex Rodriguez deserves this? And Joe Torre deserves to be fired?

On what planet does that make sense?

Clearly, it is Alex Rodriguez who must go. Rodriguez is the one who can't make it work in New York, who drags down the team with his whining and his self-flagellation. If he were as hard on Division Series pitching as he is on himself after these losses, the Yankees would right now be making plans to sweep the A's in the ALCS.

Yes, Torre's team quit on him this weekend. But it didn't quit on him in 2005, when the pitching staff was falling apart and it looked as if they might never catch the Red Sox. And it didn't quit on him this year, when it lost Hideki Matsui and Gary Sheffield for huge chunks of the season and trailed the Red Sox throughout the first half. It seems much fairer to measure a manager on what he can do over the course of 162 games than what he can do in a five-game series.

So he hasn't been able to manage Alex Rodriguez or Randy Johnson or Carl Pavano. Considering his track record, that probably says more about those players than it does about him. Those guys have whined and pouted and demanded all kinds of coddling, which they've received, and they still haven't shown they can perform in New York. Joe Torre has. He's the winner. He's the one who's going to the Hall of Fame because of what he's done with the Yankees.

Lou Piniella is not, and he's not the answer.

If George Steinbrenner would sit down, count to 10 and think about it a little, he'd realize that, too.

[Patrick]

Agree about Piniella not being the guy. But there is a much more general point here. Managing/coaching is way overrated. Joe T should get canned because the Big Unit is an old man, Moose is an old man, Sheff (as well as the Apologizer) misses cooking with cream/clear, ARod can't handle the hype/attention? Please. If someone can demonstrate that Joe T got out-strategized by opposing teams, please elaborate. He may not be Patton, but was he regularly outcoached? Did he abuse the pitching staff? I don't think so, but then I'll confess to not paying too much attention to NYY. Winning takes some luck (even in NY) and NYY didn't get enough breaks. Put this one on George and Cashman for assembling an old, injury-prone squad. What happens with Sweet Lou instead of Torre? More screaming and yelling, same injuries (or more), similar outcome. How 'bout mixing it up, and hiring/developing some new managerial talent?

[Dan Gould]

Agree about Piniella not being the guy. But there is a much more general point here. Managing/coaching is way overrated. Joe T should get canned because the Big Unit is an old man, Moose is an old man, Sheff (as well as the Apologizer) misses cooking with cream/clear, ARod can't handle the hype/attention? Please. If someone can demonstrate that Joe T got out-strategized by opposing teams, please elaborate. He may not be Patton, but was he regularly outcoached? Did he abuse the pitching staff? I don't think so, but then I'll confess to not paying too much attention to NYY. Winning takes some luck (even in NY) and NYY didn't get enough breaks. Put this one on George and Cashman for assembling an old, injury-prone squad. What happens with Sweet Lou instead of Torre? More screaming and yelling, same injuries (or more), similar outcome. How 'bout mixing it up, and hiring/developing some new managerial talent?

He did abuse the pitching staff (Villone and Proctor in particular, and Rivera was, in June, on a pace for the most inning + appearances since 2001, so who knows if that resulted in his strained muscle in September?). The only way he didn't abuse the staff was in not using Wang for Game 4, since he threw far more innings this year than any previous year. But as it was pointed out, Piniella would have had Wang pitch anyway.

There are serious questions about strategy in the way he used Sheffield, Giambi and moved A-Rod back and forth in the lineup. Its also a fact that the team seemed dispirited and flat for the last two games, presumably because he couldn't get them up and motivated. Personally, I think that last complaint is BS because if you watch any team that is being mowed down by dominant pitchers, they look flat and beaten.

Trudging back to the dugout over and over again will do that to you.

[Patrick]

As a Bosox fan you definitely follow NYY more closely than I do, so I will defer to views about how the pitching staff was handled. I didn't pay much attention to the AL East until late in the season. Gotta ask, though, how key were Villone/Proctor supposed to be going into the season? Not sure I'd be too excited about the postseason if I was relying on much from either. Mariano is important, and I shoulda added him to the list of players not getting any younger. And Joe apparently didn't find a great solution for Giambi/Sheff/ARod. Was their an obvious way to handle this, besides perhaps not having Giambi and Sheff on the same team? I'm not suggesting that the guy is a genius, just that he has had quite a bit of success, and I don't think you can pin much of this year's lack of success on the manager (just like one shouldn't pin too much of the past glories on the mgr either).

Agree that not getting the team pumped up against dominant pitching is a totally BS reason to cut a manager loose. [Gotta admit I enjoyed seeing league MVP Jeter flailing away in that last game.] The players are pros, and on NYY, are veterans, who shouldn't need that (...or given their salaries can hire their own cheerleaders/life coaches). Perhaps ARod is shopping for one now.

NYY fans can join most of the rest of us in hot stove league, just don't pull out that big checkbook too quickly--you may hit some of the rest of us in the head...

Go Tigers

[Randy Twizzle]

Yankee soul searching has reached truly lunatic proportions in some parts of the NY media. Today Sports Radio 1050, the ESPN affiliate, is running a nine (9) hour show with Yankee play by play man (and 1050 afternoon host) Michael Kay talking about the Yankee's collapse. Nine freaking hours.... It's INSANE!

[Dan Gould]

As a Bosox fan you definitely follow NYY more closely than I do, so I will defer to views about how the pitching staff was handled. I didn't pay much attention to the AL East until late in the season. Gotta ask, though, how key were Villone/Proctor supposed to be going into the season? Not sure I'd be too excited about the postseason if I was relying on much from either.

Farnsworth, who was the epitome of inconsistency + nagging back trouble, was supposed to be the key setup guy (why they threw 17 million at him) along with a Tampa Bay reject whose name escapes me. The Tampa reject, who Joe had begun to have faith in, was piss poor and had season ending arm surgery.

In the wake of those two, Proctor and Villone became key, with Proctor pitching in 83 games and 102 innings, which is a huge number for a relief pitcher in this day and age. His numbers weren't so bad (3.52 ERA) but Villone hit a serious wall in August. I believe I heard that around the first week of August, his ERA was barely over 2. From then til the end of the season, it rose all the way to 5!

Along with Farnsworth, they were the key "bridge to Mariano" that ended up being the most rickety bridge they've built so far.

And Joe apparently didn't find a great solution for Giambi/Sheff/ARod. Was their an obvious way to handle this, besides perhaps not having Giambi and Sheff on the same team?

Well, one answer would have been not adding Abreu at the trade deadline - then Sheff wouldn't have felt put upon and ignored. They did do pretty well with Melky and Bernie filling in, but let's face it, everyone agreed that Abreu was a huge positive addition that made a big difference.

The real problems were Giambi's wrist injury and hitting decline, plus Sheffield's lack of experience playing first base and inability to find any hitting groove in such a short time frame. Torre had no good option for first base - neither guy was hitting and neither can field the position! Not Torre's fault.

BTW, the NY media may be going crazy over this, but there are some interesting things coming out. The Daily News is ripping Jeter for not doing more to "reach out" to A-Rod and get him better situated, and I honestly think there is something to that. Jeter has long struck me as a prickly personality and if you cross him, like A-Rod did in the infamous Esquire article, he never ever forgives or forgets. It was a completely different situation, I know, but I am reminded of the time that Pee Wee Reese went over to Jackie Robinson and stood with him while he was being viciously abused by fans (I want to say he put his arm around him but I'm not certain). I do think that Jeter giving more public support and encouragement to A-Rod might have made a difference, and for a guy who emphasizes winning so much, why would Jeter not do it?

So, the interesting question becomes, if you fire Torre, the only manager Jeter has known (in the big leagues), to hire Piniella, on the basis that Lou will help A-Rod get it together, where does that leave Derek? How disrespectful is that to the 'Captain'?

[ghost of miles]

BTW, the NY media may be going crazy over this, but there are some interesting things coming out. The Daily News is ripping Jeter for not doing more to "reach out" to A-Rod and get him better situated, and I honestly think there is something to that. Jeter has long struck me as a prickly personality and if you cross him, like A-Rod did in the infamous Esquire article, he never ever forgives or forgets.

I completely agree that DJ should reach out to A-Rod (btw, Marty, I think it was Dan's viewpoint & not mine you were quoting earlier about Rodriguez). Jeter should do the manly thing and let bygones be bygones...throw A-Rod a bit of a lifeline. I think it'd make a world of difference. Rodriguez already deferred to Jeter when he came to NY in the first place--at that time, most thought him a better-fielding shortstop than Jeter, but they kept Jeter at ss and moved A-Rod to third. This "Saint Derek" and "Bad, Bad A-Rod" business has gotten to be ridiculous.

[Neal Pomea]

Time to pick the next round winners.

A's/Cardinals

A Tigers/Cardinals WS would sort of be nice. We'd at least see some replays of the 68 Series! I was a kid but I remember that one well! Gibson's best year. McLain won 30+ games. And the MVP was Mickey Lolich, who pitched 3 complete game victories!

Though the Tigers and Cardinals both sort of backed in as they slumped at the end of the season, they both woke up quickly and are playing well now.

[Dan Gould]

I'm going to go Tigers-Mets.

I don't see how the Cards pitching can keep the Mets from outscoring them, and the lack of a proven closer will hurt them sooner or later. Edit to add that they had to use their best starter to wrap up the DS which puts them in an even worse situation heading into the LCS.

Tigers are not only hot again, but they were an awesome road team so being the wild card won't matter. On top of that, the A's subpar offense is due to return and if the Tigers keep pitching the way they did, nothing will stop them from bringing a championship to a deserving old baseball town.

Wait a minute ... the Mets winning the WS would make Steinbrenner's head explode and he'd completely blow up the team and the front office.

Go METS!!!

Edited October 9, 2006 by Dan Gould

[sheldonm]

Time to pick the next round winners.

A's/Cardinals

A Tigers/Cardinals WS would sort of be nice. We'd at least see some replays of the 68 Series! I was a kid but I remember that one well! Gibson's best year. McLain won 30+ games. And the MVP was Mickey Lolich, who pitched 3 complete game victories!

Though the Tigers and Cardinals both sort of backed in as they slumped at the end of the season, they both woke up quickly and are playing well now.

~

I always hated that "backed in" statement....If you win the most games in your division (and have led the division for almost the entire year), you did not back in!

m~

[ghost of miles]

It isn't fair, but Yankees should fire Torre

The blame does not solely rest with Joe Torre.

Most of the blame should go to George Steinbrenner, the owner who is about to fire Torre. It is Steinbrenner who created the Yankees' dysfunctional culture, established the standard that a season only is a success if it ends with a World Series title.

Such an approach is unrealistic for any club, even one as filthy rich as the Yankees, leading to the acquisition of expensive, accomplished individualists with little regard for the overall mix. The Yankees' four world championship clubs under Torre did not boast superstars at every position. But they weren't robotic collections. They were dynamic teams.

So, perhaps the best thing to do is change the players. Purge Alex Rodriguez, purge Gary Sheffield, stop lusting after poor fits such as Randy Johnson and Carl Pavano. That, however, should not be the entire solution. Torre has enjoyed an 11-year run. His steady hand will be missed more than Steinbrenner will ever know. But his dismissal would be justified. Sad and somewhat unfair, but justified.

For six straight seasons the Yankees have failed to fulfill their mission statement, failed to win the World Series. In the past three seasons, they've fielded the three highest payrolls in major-league history, yet suffered one postseason ignominy after another. The historic collapse against the Red Sox. The first-round elimination by the Angels. Another first-round knockout by the Tigers.

Flawed as each of those teams was — the Yankees are seemingly forever short on pitching — it's reasonable to hold Torre accountable for the repeated postseason failures. He was always better at ego management than game management, but now both are in question. At the very least, the Yankees would benefit from a new voice.

Maddening as Rodriguez can be, he represents Torre's greatest failing this season. Yes, A-Rod can be phony and self-absorbed. Yes, many of his teammates find him insufferable. But Torre always found ways to incorporate divergent personalities, from David Wells to Darryl Strawberry. After the 1998 season, he was so confident in his touch, he even lobbied the Yankees to sign Albert Belle. But in the end, rather than protect Rodriguez, he further isolated him.

It wasn't right for Torre to reveal details of a private meeting with Rodriguez to Sports Illustrated. Nor was it right for Torre to play lineup roulette with Rodriguez in the postseason. Torre could argue that his decision to bat Rodriguez sixth was based on performance. But eighth? That was an unnecessary dagger, further intensifying the heat on Rodriguez when the Yankees' entire offense was crumbling. Sheffield, of all people, stood up for Rodriguez, saying that batting A-Rod eighth in an elimination game created a distraction. It's an excuse, but for once, Sheff is not off-base.

Joe Torre may need to go, but replacing him with Lou Pinella isn't a particularly good idea. (Ron Frehm / Associated Press)

Yet, Torre's missteps didn't end with Rodriguez; it just might be that Torre, like the Braves' Bobby Cox, has developed into a better manager for the regular season than the postseason. Torre's decision to play Sheffield at first and Hideki Matsui in left in the postseason was widely interpreted as a choice of offense over defense. But in sitting left fielder Melky Cabrera until Game 4, Torre not only robbed the team of a player who contributed both ways, but also supplied energy and soul.

Cabrera ultimately might be nothing more than a fourth outfielder, but the Yankees had more life when he was in the lineup. Torre knew it, too, saying that Cabrera, 22, and second baseman Robinson Cano, 23, are like kids who just enjoy playing in the streets. The politics of the situation might have prevented Torre from benching Sheffield or Matsui in favor of Cabrera; Sheffield's volatility, in particular, likely was a concern. But in the past, Torre was always adept at navigating such minefields.

The most well-founded criticism of Torre — his one clear flaw as a manager — is his over-reliance on relievers he trusts. Maybe his bullpen never was quite deep enough, but Paul Quantrill, Tanyon Sturtze, Tom Gordon are among the relievers who became worn down as Yankees. Scott Proctor led the majors in relief innings pitched this season. Bank on it right now — he won't be as effective in 2007.

And yet, hiring Lou Piniella — or any other manager, for that matter — would only give rise to a new set of problems. Piniella can be hard on pitchers, hard on young players. Perhaps he could salvage Rodriguez, who was almost like a son to him in Seattle, assuming the Yankees believed that A-Rod was even worth salvaging. But if Piniella were perceived to be too pro-Rodriguez, he would alienate a significant portion of the clubhouse.

The bottom line is that the Yankees need to change more than just managers. General manager Brian Cashman knows what must be done — he has steadfastly refused to trade top young players and taken a more rational approach to spending since gaining more authority last off-season. Steinbrenner's mission statement, his championship-or-bust mentality, is the problem.

The Yankees need to acquire younger players, more athletic players, better team players. They need to get back to where they were in the late 1990s, when Joe Torre had the kind of players who made a manager look good instead of getting him fired.

Ken Rosenthal is FOXSports.com's senior baseball writer.

[ghost of miles]

Time to pick the next round winners.

A's/Cardinals

A Tigers/Cardinals WS would sort of be nice. We'd at least see some replays of the 68 Series! I was a kid but I remember that one well! Gibson's best year. McLain won 30+ games. And the MVP was Mickey Lolich, who pitched 3 complete game victories!

Though the Tigers and Cardinals both sort of backed in as they slumped at the end of the season, they both woke up quickly and are playing well now.

The Cardinals were such a great team in the mid-1960s... I'd like to read a book about that team. Gibson was my favorite player for awhile when I was a little kid, even though he was in the twilight of his career; one of the first baseball cards I ever got was a Topps '74 of BG. Halberstam covers the '64 team in one of his books.

[GregK]

Though the Tigers and Cardinals both sort of backed in as they slumped at the end of the season, they both woke up quickly and are playing well now.

Backed in?? they won 95 games!!

[GA Russell]

I read in the paper this morning that the Tigers lost 30 of their last 51 games.

I don't think it's out of line to say that going 21-30 is backing in.

[sheldonm]

I read in the paper this morning that the Tigers lost 30 of their last 51 games.

I don't think it's out of line to say that going 21-30 is backing in.

[Neal Pomea]

I didn't mean "backed in" in a bad way. They deserve to be in the post season, because they had such great years. I should have said they slumped toward the end and almost didn't make it, which would have been a shame.

I think the A's can hit the Tigers pitching. They hit Minnesota's!

Anyway, I sort of hoped for an all West-coast series. Their stadiums (well, not Oakland's) are beautiful. They would start their games at 5 Pacific time, still daylight, which is a throwback to the past, then the shadows would creep in and help the pitchers.

I don't particularly like the prospect of players seeing their breath if the Series goes to Detroit in late October, early November, but they are deserving and an exciting team to watch. I didn't even know about that kid who pitched in the 4th game!

Take a look at this interesting article about Detroit and 1968:

http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/history/2003/031020.htm

I didn't remember that Detroit was troubled by riots at that time, and the Series brought the city a little closer together. I was just a dumb kid I guess, no hair on my head, no shoes on my feet. (I feel a country-western song coming on, so I had better take my leave).

[catesta]

[Dan Gould]

Now the Post is reporting that Joe is safe. Then again the same article says that Piniella is interested in the Nats and he's already announced that he has no interest at all in a rebuilding situation. So....

We may have an answer today, as there are indications that Torre will hold a press conference at 1 pm. Stay tuned!

[MartyJazz]

I'll just contribute my belief that Joe should stay. A-Rod should go. Get some young strong arms. Don't re-sign Sheffield and Mussina. Play Melky full time next year and perhaps convert Hideki to a first baseman.

[Chalupa]

Fearless predictions...

Yanks, Twins, Padres, Dodgers.

A perfect 4 for 4!!!

Move aside Nostradamus.

Edited October 10, 2006 by Chalupa

[Soulstation1]

yanks should trade jeter and torre to cleveland...

[Dan Gould]

yanks should trade jeter and torre to cleveland...

Jim Caple wrote a pretty smart column on why the Yanks should trade Jeter instead of A-Rod. Among the reasons:

They'd still have an outstanding shortstop.

There's no whiff of desperation in dangling Jeter, and no stench of being a headcase who'll never perform in the limelight. So teams won't try to hold up the Yanks because they're desperate but would give up plenty to get Jeter.

Too bad it would never happen - it would be alot easier to pry top-level prospects and awesome young pitchers if you offered Jeter.

[Dan Gould]

Its official: Joe still has his job.

Interesting that George is passing on Piniella. I really thought that George would jump on the opportunity to bring him back, and now its likely Piniella never comes back (if he's serious that he only wants to manage one more time).

Is it now official that Joe is a lame duck with one more year to go? If 2007 starts like 2005, will Joe get fired mid-season?

I guess George's "baseball people" convinced him that it was pitching, and young pitching that was lacking. I'm afraid that means that the Yanks may not only go all out for Zito but will go hard for the Japanese pitcher, too.

Edited October 10, 2006 by Dan Gould

[ghost of miles]

Torre remaining as manager of Yankees

By RONALD BLUM, AP Baseball Writer

October 10, 2006

NEW YORK (AP) -- Joe Torre will remain as manager of the New York Yankees, finally getting the word from owner George Steinbrenner after the team's surprise elimination from the playoffs last weekend.

Torre spoke with Steinbrenner on the telephone Tuesday, shortly before he walked into the interview room at Yankee Stadium and made the announcement.

"He gave me his support," Torre said. "I'm just pleased I'm able to stay on and do this."

The two also spoke on Monday.

"I talked to George yesterday for probably 15, 20 minutes, and we discussed a lot of things: the team, what we do from here and things like that," Torre said.

With 1,973 regular-season wins, Torre is 10th on the career list and third among active managers behind Tony La Russa of the St. Louis Cardinals (2,297) and Bobby Cox (2,171) of the Atlanta Braves.

Torre has the longest uninterrupted term for a Yankees manager since Casey Stengel held the job for 12 years from 1949-60. Under Torre, the Yankees have gone 1,079-699. He trails only Joe McCarthy (1,460) and Stengel (1,149) for victories among Yankees managers.