A non pedal organist

[Jazz Kat]

Do you think an organist could make it, and gain respect from fellow organists if he/she didn't use the pedals or play bass?

I'm trying to think if there's anybody that never did the bass and always played with a bass player, besides Shirley.

[birdanddizzy]

The french organist Emmanuel Bex never uses pedals. He plays bass with the left hand.

Lou Bennett did albums with a bass player - I have to re-listen to know if Lou played bass with the pedals in the same time...

[Harold_Z]

Playing bass kind of goes with the instrument. Shirley Scott was capable of playing excellent bass lines and usually played basslines in a live situation even though she usually recorded with a bassist.

One of the reasons organ became so popular was the two for one aspect of getting an organist who could play basslines.

[Daniel A]

The french organist Emmanuel Bex never uses pedals. He plays bass with the left hand.

Lou Bennett did albums with a bass player - I have to re-listen to know if Lou played bass with the pedals in the same time...

But could you really call Lou a non-pedal organist, the expression the starter of the thread is using? In later years he seems to have used pedaI bass regularly; for instance I heard him live in Bergerac, France in 2000 and then he used a distinctly synthetic pedal bass sound.

(in fact it was not unlike the bass sound from a 1980s Super Mario Bros. video game)

[king ubu]

Are you sure about Bex? I don't think this generally applies... I heard a "Jazz Club" on France Musiques and he had just guitar and percussion with him... and there's some mighty fun bass lines on some tunes. (Or my memory plays a major trick on me right now!)

[birdanddizzy]

But could you really call Lou a non-pedal organist, the expression the starter of the thread is using? In later years he seems to have used pedaI bass regularly; for instance I heard him live in Bergerac, France in 2000 and then he used a distinctly synthetic pedal bass sound.

(in fact it was not unlike the bass sound from a 1980s Super Mario Bros. video game)

No, Lou was non a 'non-pedal organist' but he recorded albums with bass players : 'Amen' (1960), 'Enfin !' (1963)...

The bassist Michel Gaudry, who plays on an album of Lou Bennett, told me that Lou wanted a bass player to complete his sound.

He used pedals since the beginning. I have a 45 of him recorded in United States probably in 1957 where he uses pedals. On other albums in the 60s like "Dansez et rêvez avec le trio Lou Bennett" he plays bass himself.

Later, perhaps the "Bennett machine" helps ?

[birdanddizzy]

Are you sure about Bex? I don't think this generally applies... I heard a "Jazz Club" on France Musiques and he had just guitar and percussion with him... and there's some mighty fun bass lines on some tunes. (Or my memory plays a major trick on me right now!)

I'm sure he plays bass with his left hand. I've seen him in clubs in Paris and we discussed about that. He said that it was his way in music, his own conception of organ not to use pedals.

Here is an extract of the terrific left hand of Emmanuel Bex

[Alexander Hawkins]

My initial reaction to the question would, albeit that there may be one or two exceptions, be a resounding 'no'.

Why would an organist not want to use the pedals, other than as a technical shortcut? Seems to me it gives you greater expressive potential (you free up your left hand, you give yourself the capability to highlight certain notes, etc.), so it would have to be a good thing.

I never played Hammond, but used to play a lot of classical work on church organs. The pedals are integral to the instrument: they're not some afterthought to an essentially 'manual-only' console.

Slightly different, perhaps, but it makes my point: we'd be slightly perplexed by a piano player who wanted to know if it was ok only to use his/her right hand; or a drummer who wanted to know if he could get by with just a right hand. Or, only slightly differently, a guitarist who wanted to know if it would be ok not to play in flat keys, or a tuba player who wanted to know if it would be ok not to play fast, etc. etc. etc.

[king ubu]

Are you sure about Bex? I don't think this generally applies... I heard a "Jazz Club" on France Musiques and he had just guitar and percussion with him... and there's some mighty fun bass lines on some tunes. (Or my memory plays a major trick on me right now!)

I'm sure he plays bass with his left hand. I've seen him in clubs in Paris and we discussed about that. He said that it was his way in music, his own conception of organ not to use pedals.

Here is an extract of the terrific left hand of Emmanuel Bex

That's pretty cool! Bex is really something!

[Soul Stream]

Larry Goldings is a self-proclaimed non pedal organist. Still he's one HELL of an organist! I do think Larry has since become acustomed to the pedals although when I have seen him he seems to look down to see if he's hitting the right ones. I don't think Larry ever came up playing real hammonds, usually clones with no pedals. He told me he doesn't even have an organ at his home. So, yeah you can become a great organist without the pedals. The guy from Soulive's a great example too. His left hand bass is monstrous.

That said, if you do get a chance to play a real hammond with full pedals for any length of time, you will natuarally learn to play them as you can do so much more if you can. Also, it gives you bass lines a much fuller feel when you play left hand accented or in tandem with the pedals.

Also, Lou Bennet was one of the best pedal players in the history of jazz organ. He was mainly known for his ability to play full swinging basslines on nothing but the pedals.

[Jim Alfredson]

I'll never forget what my teacher/mentor told me, when I made excuses for not learning the pedals: "If you're not going to play pedals, you might as well play piano."

A little over the top, sure... but it's akin to saying, "Can I be a drummer without playing the bass drum?" Sure you can. It might even be cool. But why not learn it and then if you don't want to use it that's fine but you'll still have the skills to work in multiple situations. The name of the game in the gig business is versatility and if you go around saying you're an organist but can't do left-hand basslines at the very least, you're not going to get jobs in jazz most likely. Most people looking for an organist want to have two musicians (bass and a chordal instrument like piano) for the price of one.

Left-hand bass lines are hard. Pedals are even harder. But when the two finally come together, and you play a solo and realize for the first time that you weren't thinking about the bass line, that it was automatic, and that you're driving the whole band... shit, there's no better feeling! I still remember the day that happened for me.

Now, if you've got something different in your head, then go for it. I have no idea if Medeski can kick bass (I'm guessing not) but that's not what he's about and he's never tried to be like that, so bully for him. It all comes down to what you want to do. But in my mind, it's better to know the instrument inside and out.

[DukeCity]

Jim, (or others with knowledge of organ stuff) don't some organists walk left-hand bass and also kind of tap the pedals (with a bass registration that has a percussive sound) almost like a drummer feathering the bass drum? Seems like I've seen some guys do that

[Jim Alfredson]

Yeah, that's the Jimmy Smith way. The pedals just add an attack to the front of the note. Some cats just tapped the middle Bb pedal instead of "shadowing" the left foot to the left hand.

That's primarily for swinging, walking bass lines. I find now that I'm comfortable with the pedals (and didn't settle for the "one pedal tap" thing, but learned them for real), I can play much better funky bass lines, off-meter bass lines, etc. with a combination of pedal and left hand than with just left hand. Again, it's another dimension to the instrument and really frees you up on certain things if you can kick pedals.

[Soul Stream]

Guys who dedicate themselves to jazz organ master the pedals. HOW they play them is personal style and preference. And in all honesty, it ain't that hard. Leon Spencer Jr. gave me the best advice about playing the pedals...."20 minutes every day play left hand bass in unison with the pedals and LOOK at the pedals while you do it, after a while it's so automatic you won't need to look."

[Jazz Kat]

I think I'll stick to the piano.

[JSngry]

You will if you never wash your hands...

[Jim Alfredson]

I think I'll stick to the piano.

That's the spirit!

[catesta]

You will if you never wash your hands...

HAHAHA!

[Alexander Hawkins]

I think I'll stick to the piano.

I think the implication that piano's easier is simply wrong (if intended! ) - it's simply different. Mastering an instrument is tough whichever one you go for. Don't choose an instrument for the shortcuts it presents.

[Jazz Kat]

Well, it's not like I'm starting out. I have been playing the piano for a while, and can get through most tunes in the real book. It has been fairly recently I have been considering getting an organ and making it my main instrument. Plus, most people I know don't really like organs, or it's easier to get gigs as a pianist. I figure I'll call myself a pianist, get an organ, play with the organ on gigs whenever I can, and experiment with other keyboards such as the fender rhodes and synths and stuff. On the side I'll teach myself the pedals, and then I'll see where I am at that point.

[Soul Stream]

Commiting yourself to jazz organ is a physical commitment no pianist can concieve. Hauling around a B3 in this day and age seems downright silly to most musicians, especially when everyone else is carrying 10 lbs. of equipment.

And you're right. The organ is a very limited niche instrument. Not appreciated by most restaurants and many "jazz" venues. You ARE better off playing piano from a financial and physical standpoint...but not a spiritual one.

[Jazz Kat]

How do you carry around yours?

[Herb]

I carried mine in a trailer with a ramp door, organ dollies, and if there was more than two steps getting into a gig, three other band members with strong backs and weak minds - and only one of them could be a drummer! (No offense meant, Randy!)

[Soul Stream]

I carried mine in a trailer with a ramp door, organ dollies, and if there was more than two steps getting into a gig, three other band members with strong backs and weak minds - and only one of them could be a drummer! (No offense meant, Randy!)

Same here. I just hauled mine up 20 stairs for an upstairs gig.

[michel devos]

He used pedals since the beginning.