Hank Mobley & His All Stars - Sound Quality Issue

[Stereojack]

The first Blue Note session recorded in stereo was Sabu's Palo Congo on April 27, 1957 (it was issued only in mono at the time on Blue Note LP 1561).

Mike, I'm afraid you're wrong!

The Cuscuna/Ruppli BN Label discography book (first edition 1988) states that the first session recorded by BN in both mono and stereo was the May 8, 1957 session (Horace Silver 'The Stylings of Silver'). Or has this Bible been proved wrong?

I have this from a note by Cuscuna himself on some reissue he produced! (I think it was the Japanese 3 LP boy "The Other Side of Blue Note 1500 Series".) As I said, the Sabu was only released in mono at the time - maybe the Silver was the first Blue Note to be issued in both mono and stereo.

I had the Japanese LP reissue Cuscuna produced back then and now have the Japanese CD - clearly stereo.

Perhaps the question should be which was the first Blue Note stereo session engineered by Rudy Van Gelder? A note at the end of the Silver date (May 8, 1957) in the Ruppli book clearly states that this is Blue Note's first stereo date. The Sabu date (April 28, 1957) was not recorded at Rudy's, it was recorded at Manhattan Towers, NYC, engineer uncredited. I've always assumed that the two week period April 21 - May 8) during which Blue Note did not record at Rudy's was while Rudy was installing his stereo recording equipment, which may be true, but a quick check of Ruppli's Prestige discography shows several dates (April 24, 26, 27, May 1, 3) not issued (and probably not recorded) in stereo. And Savoy recorded there on May 2, also mono.

Btw, "The Stylings of Silver" is definitely not the first Blue Note to be issued in stereo. The stereo version was first released in 1967 when Liberty took over and "stereo-ized" the whole in print catalog - fake stereo on the earlier sessions, true stereo on the later ones. And, in many instances, they were unsure of what they had. I've found any number of Liberty-pressed 4000 series Blue Notes that claim to be "rechanneled for stereo" but which play true stereo.

[Chuck Nessa]

Rudy told me the Sabu date was his first stereo session for BN. The Manhattan Towers sessions were recorded by Rudy.

FWIW, the stereo master of Palo Congo sounds like crap compared to the mono.

[J.A.W.]

FWIW, the stereo master of Palo Congo sounds like crap compared to the mono.

RVG's mono masters often sound better than the stereo ones.

[Shawn]

I think this recording was jinxed from the start. Isn't this the session where Milt's vibes weren't available so they had to use a rental? I seem to remember reading that somewhere.

I have 3 versions of this (orginal US CD, Mosaic, JRVG) and they all sound like crap...but...it's a great session, so I just EQ it a little and enjoy.

[Chuck Nessa]

I think this recording was jinxed from the start. Isn't this the session where Milt's vibes weren't available so they had to use a rental? I seem to remember reading that somewhere.

I'd guess you are remembering Don DeMichael's liner notes for the '70s 2 lp reissue.

[David Ayers]

David Ayers,

Which TOCJ have you been listening to. The old TOCJ or the new TOCJ-24bit?

/Shaft

The old one...

[Daniel A]

to compare: same tune, BNWorks version. Much healthier

John, which tune and which part do your graphs show? Since I have the McMastered Connoisseur it could be fun if I posted a graph of the same section from that remaster as well for comparsion.

[couw]

to compare: same tune, BNWorks version. Much healthier

John, which tune and which part do your graphs show? Since I have the McMastered Connoisseur it could be fun if I posted a graph of the same section from that remaster as well for comparsion.

the first tune "'s Make It" in its intirety.

[Daniel A]

A closer look revealed that it was in fact Larry Walsh who remastered the Connoisseur.

It seems more compressed than the Japanese version, though not anywhere near the RVG. Would be interesting to see a graph of an original vinyl copy. It's strange Van Gelder masters his CD reissues so differently than the original LPs (at least from how they sound).

EDIT: I just noticed that the heavily compressed graph above was not the RVG, but in fact the most recent 24 bit Japanese release.

Edited November 14, 2007 by Daniel A

[Daniel A]

I also realize that the Connoisseur must be EQ:ed differently than the BN Works version, since the peaks are at different places.

[couw]

It's strange Van Gelder masters his CD reissues so differently than the original LPs (at least from how they sound).

While I also find that strange, the TOCJ24 of Davis Cup was not done by Rudy Wang, but by a Japanese engineer.

[J.A.W.]

A closer look revealed that it was in fact Larry Walsh who remastered the Connoisseur.

It seems more compressed than the Japanese version, though not anywhere near the RVG.

The good looking version is the earlier "Blue Note Works" TOCJ; the compressed version is the later TOCJ24, not the RVG. I wonder what the RVG graph looks like.

[couw]

A closer look revealed that it was in fact Larry Walsh who remastered the Connoisseur.

It seems more compressed than the Japanese version, though not anywhere near the RVG.

The good looking version is the earlier "Blue Note Works" TOCJ; the compressed version is the later TOCJ24, not the RVG. I wonder what the RVG graph looks like.

if the two versions I have of Sonny Clark's Royal Flush (TOCJ BNW [mono] & domestic RVG [stereo]) are any indication, the RVG will be a "very happy" wall of sound...

Must add that I find RVGs not as utterly obnoxious as the TOCJ24 of Davis Cup. Though they are fatiguing when listening on headphones, they are still pretty okay and often beat the late 80s/early 90s versions that tended to be pretty muddy. There are many more details in the RVG of Blue Train for example than in the older domestic CD version. The TOCJ BNW of that title is fantastic of course.

And should also add that not all TOCJ24 discs are such aural wrecks. Mobley's Workout sounds splendid!

Edited March 7, 2006 by couw

[J.A.W.]

A closer look revealed that it was in fact Larry Walsh who remastered the Connoisseur.

It seems more compressed than the Japanese version, though not anywhere near the RVG.

The good looking version is the earlier "Blue Note Works" TOCJ; the compressed version is the later TOCJ24, not the RVG. I wonder what the RVG graph looks like.

if the two versions I have of Sonny Clark's Royal Flush (TOCJ BNW [mono] & domestic RVG [stereo]) are any indication, the RVG will be a "very happy" wall of sound...

How to kill the music...

[Guest]

A closer look revealed that it was in fact Larry Walsh who remastered the Connoisseur.

It seems more compressed than the Japanese version, though not anywhere near the RVG.

The good looking version is the earlier "Blue Note Works" TOCJ; the compressed version is the later TOCJ24, not the RVG. I wonder what the RVG graph looks like.

if the two versions I have of Sonny Clark's Royal Flush (TOCJ BNW [mono] & domestic RVG [stereo]) are any indication, the RVG will be a "very happy" wall of sound...

Must add that I find RVGs not as utterly obnoxious as the TOCJ24 of Davis Cup. Though they are fatiguing when listening on headphones, they are still pretty okay and often beat the late 80s/early 90s versions that tended to be pretty muddy. There are many more details in the RVG of Blue Train for example than in the older domestic CD version. The TOCJ BNW of that title is fantastic of course.

And should also add that not all TOCJ24 discs are such aural wrecks. Mobley's Workout sounds splendid!

Regarding Mobley´s Workout I have The JRVG mini LP version and it sound fine EXCEPT for the narrowing of the stereo spread. Priceless music though!!

/Shaft

[Guest]

if i recall correctly i saw a back issue of downbeat not too long ago- and the original lp review for this title bashed the sound quality as well....was it just a bad batch of tape or something?

[mikeweil]

Rudy told me the Sabu date was his first stereo session for BN. The Manhattan Towers sessions were recorded by Rudy.

..... and he's properly credited for engineering this on the CD inlay.

[mikeweil]

On a general note: This hype about the RVG remasterings reminds me of Orrin Keepnews' attempts at remedeing production errors that occured at the sessions when he prepared reissues himself.

Perhaps an engineer with a more neutral - I mean, less emotionally involved - approach to the tapes would yield better sounding results.

The exitement when listening to this for the very first time cannot be relived, anyway.

Edited March 8, 2006 by mikeweil

[brownie]

Rudy told me the Sabu date was his first stereo session for BN. The Manhattan Towers sessions were recorded by Rudy.

..... and he's properly credited for engineering this on the CD inlay.

I have the Japanese Toshiba vinyl reissue from 1984 of this album. The cover has no indication wether it's mono or stereo. But the label (Blue Note 1561) indicates STEREO and stereo it is!

Recording by Rudy Van Gelder, says the back cover!

[Guest]

On a general note: This hype about the RVG remasterings reminds me of Orrin Keepnews' attempts at remedeing production errors that occured at the sessions when he prepared reissues himself.

Perhaps an engineer with a more neutral - I mean, less emotionally involved - approach to the tapes would yield better sounding results.

The exitement when listening to this for the very first time cannot be relived, anyway.

Yeah, I think you are right that it would have been a better choice to have some other guy to do the rematering. Steve Hoffman comes to mind However I've read somewhere that Rydy wanted (in the beginning atleast) try to duplicate what Alfre Lion heard in the control booth. If I'm not mistakin that could be the reason of the narrowing of the stereo spread to almost mono. That is what Alfred heard with the mono speaker in the control room when they played back the tapes in 1957!?

Rydy has said in interviews that when he remastered this music he discovered a lot of great music! When he was recording he wasn't listening that much to the music in an emotional way but more from a technical point of view (is the balance right, mike positioning etc.)

In all earnest I think RVGs sound better and better.

/Shaft

[Bluerein]

Who made these graphs? They can be altered by just choosing a different scale.

I prefer to listen with my ears and not by seeing a graph, but to each it's own......

[J.A.W.]

Who made these graphs? They can be altered by just choosing a different scale.

I prefer to listen with my ears and not by seeing a graph, but to each it's own......

Well, to my ears many of the TOCJ24s sound rotten and the graphs just confirmed what I'm hearing. But like you said, to each his own...

[couw]

Who made these graphs? They can be altered by just choosing a different scale.

The scale is the same for all graphs.

[Man with the Golden Arm]

but did someone "monkey" with the graphs???

[Shawn]

Graphs don't really tell you anything, there's too many different ways to manipulate audio digitally. The only "giveaway" is if they are completely squared off at the top, that means either heavy compression or digital limiting (rock CDs are all mastered that way these days).