Miles - On the Corner and Beyond

[Stefan Wood]

Well, doesn't really seem that way to me! Certianly it isn't done in a vacuum and no one can completely block out their earlier life or experience or work. Some of the blues playing strikes me as from before sure, but most of that that strikes me that way is earlier than the period of this box. . . .

Yes, you are right. The fourth disc, which have the two long jams, are quite different. I'm wondering too how much his car accident and subsequent increase in drugs shaped the later sound as well.

[bobbelden]

I'm wondering too how much his car accident and subsequent increase in drugs shaped the later sound as well.

Put these names together and the music will have a social reference:

THE RED CARPET LOUNGE

SABU'S

BIG NICKS

COPPOLAS

BUMBY JOHNSON

WALTER DEAN

WALTER BOOKER

CHIN GIGANTE

[king ubu]

PS: No Duffy's, no other boxes planned....

Thanks for the update. Too bad !

Apologies but I don't get it - who is "notme"? Bob Belden? Or any of those other guys on that (interesting-looking) project he mentions? Just trying to find out why you (sidewinder) consider this info of any relevance... maybe I'm just too stupid...

[sidewinder]

I'm assuming its possibly "the" Bob with the news from the horse's mouth - but maybe I'm wrong..

Edited November 20, 2007 by sidewinder

[jazzbo]

I'm assuming its possibly "the" Bob

C'mon. . . .When have YOU ever been wrong?

Edited November 20, 2007 by jazzbo

[king ubu]

I'm assuming its possibly "the" Bob

C'mon. . . .When have YOU ever been wrong?

so bobs talking of bobs can't be wrong...

too bad if that's true

(not the bob thing, but the facts *the* Bob stated above, of course)

[JSngry]

I'm assuming its possibly "the" Bob with the news from the horse's mouth - but maybe I'm wrong..

You're not.

[skeith]

I picked this box up a couple of days ago.

Like others have said, the outer box had several major dents concealed by the paper on the back, so I did not notice until I opened it. I won't be returning it because I suspect that given the thinness of the metal a lot of the boxes will be dented.

As for the liner notes, I am somewhat disappointed - many of the pages don't have much text and what text is there I did not find too compelling. Buckmaster - I expected much more than he delivered.

As for the music, I have listened through disc 4 and have found the music to be alternately fantastic and boring - but it is too soon for a final judgement at this moment. (I must admit I was not too thrilled by this music when it first came out.)

[king ubu]

I'm assuming its possibly "the" Bob with the news from the horse's mouth - but maybe I'm wrong..

You're not.

Apologies then if there've been some hidden hints I should have noticed... always appreciated to get information straight from the soure!

[JSngry]

Oh, no need to apologize. No hidden hints or anything like that, I just know that it is Bob.

[sidewinder]

Not this "Bob"?

Bob

Edited November 21, 2007 by sidewinder

[WTK]

I certainly hope it's not this "Bob!"

Bob

[dave9199]

Now that we have this box set, has anyone gone through the '75 live albums and figured out what songs are there? I remember What They Do is on one of them.

[B. Clugston]

Now that we have this box set, has anyone gone through the '75 live albums and figured out what songs are there? I remember What They Do is on one of them.

"Ife," probably "Mr. Foster," "Turnaround," "Maiysha," the odd "Calypso Frelimo" reference. Not sure about "What They Do." It shares some similarities to song known as "Turnaroundphrase," but is missing some key elements. "What They Do" sounds more like the "Turnaroundphrase" rave-up that closes Dark Magus.

[dave9199]

Pardon my ignorance, but I've noticed the Helen Butte/Mr Freedom X unedited master is 5 seconds longer than the released version. How different are the two?

[B. Clugston]

Pardon my ignorance, but I've noticed the Helen Butte/Mr Freedom X unedited master is 5 seconds longer than the released version. How different are the two?

Due to the complete lack of information in the set, that's one of many unanswered questions. I think the into/ending may be longer, but don't have it front of me right now.

Also, maybe I'm not as on the ball these days having a newborn at home, but I'm having a hard time finding the connection between the "One and One" unedited master and the released version.

[dave9199]

Yes, I thought that too about One & One. I also wonder what part of On The Corner made Black Satin.

[B. Clugston]

Yes, I thought that too about One & One. I also wonder what part of On The Corner made Black Satin.

That's apparently an error. "Black Satin" was made at the following session with Creamer, Garnett, et al.

[dave9199]

So it was taken from Helen Butte/Mr Freedom X?

[docwilko]

Hello members, particularly, B Clugston (congratulations!) Dave 9199 and Rosco,

some of you were asking all the right questions in November, December, but then maybe you all went off to prepare for winterval or whatever ...

I was given this set a few days ago for my birthday and have comments on the phoney One And One, the incredible similarity between the real On The Corner masters and their so-called edited versions, and the material used on the Agharta and Pangaea albums ...

1) One And One unedited master is indeed nothing of the sort. It is, as someone (Rosco?) pointed out on 1 November (page 25), an extended version of "What If" (from Laswell's Panthalassa) - in fact, I think Laswell does a little editing in the last 30 or so secs of his version, but What If is basically the first six and a bit minutes of this thing called One And One unedited master.

2) However, I think Rosco has been tricked into thinking it is McLaughlin on guitar on that one. There are either two or more guitarist or some overdubbing has been used. I imagine it is the wild fuzzy distorted guitar that Rosco took for McLaughlin, but I really think that it is only superficially like McLaughlin. I can only suggest close comparison with the preceding tracks to support this - but I think McLaughlin's guitar effect is less fuzzy, his attack is much heavier, his sustain more powerful and even his note choice slightly different (OK, that's fairly impressionistic). I reckon Creamer was influenced by McLaughlin - good for him! That wouldn't be surprising, would it?

3) My quick first impression of the relationship between the unedited masters and the original On The Corner release is that we have been conned just as badly, perhaps worse, than we were with the It's About That Time master on the Silent Way box. Basically I think there are no differences between the master and the released version of Helen Butte / Mr Freedom X, although they may have faded out the end five seconds early or snipped a second off the beginning. As for On The Corner, Teo with or without Miles, created the first 29-30 seconds of the piece, I guess just copying bits from individual tracks of the multi-track master. So we have the rhythm, those skronky McLaughlin guitar stabs and that one note from Miles 4 times. At 20 seconds, there's a seven note descending guitar run by McLaughlin. It repeats at about 0.29 of the original and that's the point where the unedited master begins, continuing - completely unedited I think, and in its entirety - to the end of Vote For Miles.

So, as I see it, we already had the unedited master of On The Corner, we just had an extra constructed intro as well. And to all intents and purposes we already had the Helen Butte/Freedom X master too!

However, where the real One And One comes from, I don't know. It doesn't sound like it could have been taken from the HB/MFX, and it can't come from What If aka the phoney One And One. As to Black Satin, I noticed that some of Miles trumpet on the Laswell Panthalassa version of Black Satin wasn't heard on side one of the LP. Enrico Merlin said it was taken from Helen Butte. (I can't remember if I checked or simply trusted him). But now I'm thinking perhaps that Black Satin was/is simply an edited version of the HB/MFX master with the handclap percussion overdubs. That, however, is just speculation

It is simply amazing that they can put out such a lavish package and leave you guessing on so many important matters!!

4) Mr Foster is the piece better known as For Dave, but I don't myself hear any snatches of Calypso Frelimo on either Agharta or Pangaea. I think these albums have been laid out pretty well on sites like Losin's (Miles Ahead) and Tingen (Miles Beyond). (But what the box calls Turnaround is not to be confused with Turnaroundphrase)

Still, there is actually some great music on this so I am a happy birthday bunny!

Best regards,

docwilko

Pardon my ignorance, but I've noticed the Helen Butte/Mr Freedom X unedited master is 5 seconds longer than the released version. How different are the two?

Due to the complete lack of information in the set, that's one of many unanswered questions. I think the into/ending may be longer, but don't have it front of me right now.

Also, maybe I'm not as on the ball these days having a newborn at home, but I'm having a hard time finding the connection between the "One and One" unedited master and the released version.

[Big Al]

Well, I had a chance to listen to this set thanks to the Arlington Public Library, which somehow managed to score TWO copies of this set. It was okay. If nothing else, it made me appreciate the finished product much more than I ever gave it credit for. The same thing happened with the JACK JOHNSON set. The single disc issues of these albums work just fine for me.

[skeith]

Thanks for bringing this up Big Al.

Given the huge number of posts that were generated before this set came out, I am, as usual, surprised by how little discussion has occurred since its release.

Like you, I am underwhelmed. It has some great moments, but overall I was not crazy about it.

But I would love to hear what others think.

[jazzbo]

Well I don't know how to listen to this set impartially. I've loved the previously released material in this set since it first appeared (yes, I'm that old and worn out) and it sounds fantastic here. I also love the totally unreleased numbers here and still find them exciting to listen to!

It's the last of these sets we'll see. . . sort of sad to think of that and there's a bit of affection that's developing towards it for me on that account as well.

Bob Belden: job well done!

[JSngry]

Yeah, once again, what is there to say other than "great music!" and a few variations/personal spins on that?

But ok, once again - I love this music (and the various live shows of the time), & in many ways think it's Miles' most personal & innovative, if not alwyas his best "formed". But it did set some precedents that have only fairly recently been gaining momentum into the mainstream (and not necessarily of jazz), and for sheer sonic color & other audacities, it's pretty hard to beat - if you're into this/that kind of thing. If not, hey. Life still goes on, right?

But really, as popular/populist music becomes less and less linear & macro-unichromatic (no it's not a word, but I mean it to signify one overall "general" textural color) and more and more omni-directional & coloristically fluid, this music's prescience becomes more and more apparent. Again, if you're into this/that type of thing.

You want me to come back in a few weeks and say the same thing differently?

[jlhoots]

Well I don't know how to listen to this set impartially. I've loved the previously released material in this set since it first appeared (yes, I'm that old and worn out) and it sounds fantastic here. I also love the totally unreleased numbers here and still find them exciting to listen to!

It's the last of these sets we'll see. . . sort of sad to think of that and there's a bit of affection that's developing towards it for me on that account as well.

Bob Belden: job well done!

As often, what Lon said.