connoisseur series500 Posted July 24, 2003 Author Report Posted July 24, 2003 I've really enjoyed reading everyone's comments here, and I've learned a lot. Looks like I will upgrade my "Mode for Joe," and "Search for a New Land." I'm keeping my older version of "Let Freedom Ring," and probably my Dexter Gordon. I haven't yet decided on "Grantstand," but am leaning towards keeping my older version. I'll probably upgrade "Adam's Apple" in order to follow the advice to upgrade the sessions that you really love. I'll check on those McMaster recordings. Was he that bad? Quote
Harold_Z Posted July 24, 2003 Report Posted July 24, 2003 Upgrade "Maiden Voyage". The first cd issue of that was pretty bad. The RVG was a distinct inprovement. As mentioned earlier - the Monk, Miles, Milt Jackson RVGs are pretty drastic improvements also. Otherwise - and I'll stress I haven't heard everything - many of the McMasters don't bother me in the least. Quote
hockman Posted July 24, 2003 Report Posted July 24, 2003 I hardly "upgrade" my cds when a new remastering comes out. I find the older BN cds to be quite decent even thru' many, many upgrades in my hi fi hardware. Occasionally, I'll give a new version a try if the older CD is especially bad. It is not a given that newer remasterings are better. Often they just different or sometimes actually worse. For instance, the latest iteration of Waltz for Debby is different rather than better than the 1980s remastering. On the other hand, the new 2 disc set of Tijuana Moods sounds worse to my ears than the mid 1980s cd. Additionally, the second disc is full of alternate and incomplete takes that would only be of academic interest. There is a tendency for overcompression nowadays and the gradual deterioration in the master tape can sometimes be heard. I'd rather buy new music, than to have the music companies extract another ounce of blood from me by selling me yet another version of the same thing. Quote
Jazzmoose Posted July 24, 2003 Report Posted July 24, 2003 I'd rather buy new music, than to have the music companies extract another ounce of blood from me by selling me yet another version of the same thing. Agreed. (And welcome to the board, dude!) There's just too much good music out there to spend my limited funds on another-and-another-and-another remastering of the same thing. Even if I wanted to do it, when it came time to open the wallet, I just couldn't do it... Quote
connoisseur series500 Posted July 24, 2003 Author Report Posted July 24, 2003 I've really enjoyed reading everyone's comments here, and I've learned a lot. Looks like I will upgrade my "Mode for Joe," and "Search for a New Land." I'm keeping my older version of "Let Freedom Ring," and probably my Dexter Gordon. I haven't yet decided on "Grantstand," but am leaning towards keeping my older version. I'll probably upgrade "Adam's Apple" in order to follow the advice to upgrade the sessions that you really love. I'll check on those McMaster recordings. Was he that bad? I've definitely changed my opinion since writing this. I gave all the discs a good listen and I now feel that some of the older versions are fine while others definitely need some improvement. The ones that are fine: "Mode for Joe" "Our Man in Paris" "Sonny Rollins vol 1" The ones that are "Okay" "Adam's Apple" "Let Freedom Ring" "Indestructible" The ones that need upgrading: "Grantstand" (organ sounds distorted; needs definition) "Search for a New Land" (needs more sharpness and definition) The ones I don't own or are not sure about: "Blue Train" Horace Silver Trio Bud Powell So in my opinion, there are only two which badly need an upgrading and that would be the Grant Green and the Lee Morgan. Quote
David Ayers Posted July 24, 2003 Report Posted July 24, 2003 I almost always find that the late 80s McMasters have a brittle, hard, irritating sound Wow. Talk about different perspectives. Are you sure you're not listening to them on the microwave? Cuz they sure as hell sound irritating on that. Seriously... most people consider early McMasters to have a nicely graduated tonal range, even if the result is usually a little soft focussed and sometimes recessed. But the ARE musical sounding, which is exactly what I find the grating RVGs NOT to be. Quote
JohnS Posted July 24, 2003 Report Posted July 24, 2003 If there's additional materail I'll upgrade. I still have loads of vinyl that I'm happy to keep also. Quote
Late Posted July 24, 2003 Report Posted July 24, 2003 Connie, if you don't have Bud's The Scene Changes, you're in for a treat. I think this is the perfect starting point for getting into Bud (though most I think would argue that his earlier sessions are better starting points). You may already have some Bud on disc, but The Scene Changes ... how can I put it? It's worth the $8.99 or $11.99, or whatever price you can find. The track "Danceland" should have been included in the soundtrack for Barfly (though there actually never was any formal soundtrack): Mickey Rourke standing there in the hallway, trying to get his damn key to work in the lock (which it finally did, but accidentally to someone else's apartment). Just a thought ... Quote
marcoliv Posted July 24, 2003 Report Posted July 24, 2003 soulstream, i understand how addicted you are! peace Marcus Oliveira Quote
Shrdlu Posted July 25, 2003 Report Posted July 25, 2003 Hockman, you have a good point when you mention the deterioration of the tapes. That is one area where the early CDs, from about 14 years ago now (that's a long time, isn't it?), score over the very recent ones in some cases. This is certainly a factor with the "Horace Silver Trio" album, for example. A big advantage of most of the TOCJ "Blue Note Works" CDs is that they were not taken from the original session reels, but used LP masters in the possession of Toshiba. So they escape any deterioration of the original tapes, and are (for the most part) free from any McMaster influence. In the case of "Dippin'", even the old McMaster CD has a tape flaw that is not on the TOCJ. Quote
hockman Posted July 25, 2003 Report Posted July 25, 2003 Agreed. (And welcome to the board, dude!) There's just too much good music out there to spend my limited funds on another-and-another-and-another remastering of the same thing. Even if I wanted to do it, when it came time to open the wallet, I just couldn't do it... Thanks for the welcome, Mark. I used to post on the old BN forum til it got yanked. Another thing to add about recent cd versions, and this has probably been discussed before -- the inconsistent sonics of the JRVGs. I have very few of these (they are expensive!) but among the half dozen which I own, I had to end up with a disproportionate number of duds -- Lee Morgan's LeeWay and G Green's I Want to Hold Your Hand. These two are bad enough for me to avoid JRVGs; they are just too expensive to take a crap shoot. I do however have a little confession to make. Whenever I see a good vinyl copy of a cd that I already have, I'm sorely tempted to pick it up. For instance, recently I bought a Japanese pressing of Maiden Voyage even though I own the original cd (not RVG, TOCJ or JRVG). New cd remasterings don't do it for me (unless it contains material which I really want, or if the original cd is especially bad), but somehow I love the vinyl version (this goes beyond the sonics). Hockman Quote
CJ Shearn Posted July 25, 2003 Report Posted July 25, 2003 I generally upgrade for albums I truly love, ie.... the RVG's of "The Sermon", "Houseparty", "A Night at Birdland", or never previously had on CD ("Midnight Blue") although most of my RVG's are of music I never previously heard or owned. The McMasters truly have a nasty, sandpapery edge in the treble and lack of defined bass from the 80's, although some his more recent jobs aren't that bad. Hey, did someone else do the remastering jobs for the early 90's twofers like "Up At Mintons" and "At the Jazz Corner of the World" since there are no credits on them? the sound on those hold up well. About 3-4 years agon I thought that a 20 or 24 bit CD meant instantly better sound, not always so, it can aid in a better sounding version but not perfect all the time. What really floored me are the domestic K2's I have of Cookin/Steamin/Relaxin I got around X-mas time, the rich woody bass tones, Philly Joe's K's rich with detail, a full, pleasing midrange that's very warm.... Paul's bass sounds so resonant that he almost sounds DI'ed before that practice ever was used........ tho it's not ever twangy. The XRCD I have of "Workin" is a little brighter, but still very well done. I look forward to snapping up some of those Coltranes and Rollins' in K2 that are domestics in the near future. As for other companies, I have most every recent Columbia Miles remaster of the Trane and Second Quintet stuff, b/c those early Columbia's are horrible. altho the existing "My Funny Valentine/Four+More" set isn't that bad. Anyway....... McMasters that I wish were upgraded to RVG's domestically but aren't that bad in their current state: Crazy Baby At the Five Spot Cafe Quote
Shrdlu Posted July 25, 2003 Report Posted July 25, 2003 Did Philly Joe use Ks, CJ? I never knew that. You can tell that Tony Williams did, because of the heavy sound. From today's listening (I'm still trying out my new Jamos with the Sony boom box!): JRVG of "Trompeta Toccata" sounded terrific. No need to look for a better version. RVG of "Una Mas" was very AM radio, but not all that bad, and was quite good with a twiddle of the bass knob. But I would like to hear the TOCJ now. The German shepherd slept through them both. Quote
Late Posted July 26, 2003 Report Posted July 26, 2003 Forgot to add that anything "remastered" by Larry Walsh is usually in grave need of upgrading. Poor Larry. Quote
Shrdlu Posted July 26, 2003 Report Posted July 26, 2003 Not wishing to be perverse, but I like Larry's Conn CDs. They aren't the best ever, but the ones that I've heard are quite good. Curley and Moe are even better. Quote
CJ Shearn Posted July 27, 2003 Report Posted July 27, 2003 Shrdlu, Philly did most likely use K's....... I just listen to the way the cymbal rings and washes, deep resonant metallic tones. When Philly switches to a different ride on those Miles dates behind I think some of Trane's solos, it has a really dark sound with lots of stick tone, pretty dry too. I was talking a local drummer who gigs at the Lost Dog, a cafe around here and he told me back then, there wasn't as big a difference between A'S and K's cuz the cymbals were made really thin....... (he uses a beautiful sounding vintage K, sounds nearly identical to Tony's), tho generally the A's are a bit brighter, and K's are darker. Sometimes I have a tough time guessing the cymbal myself, then again, I'm not a drummer, just an audiophile Quote
Soul Stream Posted July 27, 2003 Report Posted July 27, 2003 (edited) soulstream, i understand how addicted you are! peace Marcus Oliveira Yes, I'm a Blue Note addict. I'm an RVG addict. I'm a Conn. addict. I'm a Rare Grooves addict. My whole "jazz" life has been one big 'upgrade.' The first jazz recording I ever bought was Hank Mobley's "Workout" when Blue Note first reissued it on CD for the first time. I went out and traded all my rock albums in at the used bookstore and traded them for the remaining titles they had just gotten it. About 15 or so that included "Adam's Apple," "The Scene Changes," and "Sonny Rollins Vol.1" coincidently enough! But I WILL be buying the upgraded RVGs. My GOD, it's the BEST music ever made....so for $8.99 I think I'll just sniff the new packaging, dig the new liners, look at the pretty pictures and LISTEN TO THE BADDEST STUFF IN THE WORLD!!! Hey man, it's one of the simple pleasures in my life. And I mean the shit out of that. I've come to equate the beauty of Fall with new RVGs, the coming of summer with Rare Grooves, ect... Some think devoting yourself to the classic Blue Note era a little close minded or cliche'. And they're probably right. But that's where my heart is. Like any good thing, you always come back to it. Once my soul absorbs all the Blue Notes, I'll move on...but that might be a few million years. Edited July 27, 2003 by Soul Stream Quote
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