Jimmy Smith: playing Coltrane before Coltrane

[Soul Stream]

I know how some of us on the board have talked at length in the past about the idea that John Coltrane was in fact getting quite a bit of inspiration for his concept from Jimmy Smith, especially since Coltrane was in Jimmy's band for a while.

Well, picked up the new JazzTimes where Joey Defrancesco says exactly the same thing. Check it out for yourself, good issue with some good rememberences.

Edited February 20, 2006 by Soul Stream

[CJ Shearn]

oh man, Soul Stream, right on......... I said that to a friend the other night. Especially if you listen to "Groovin at Smalls Paradise" the parallels are uncanny....... even the stop choice Jimmy uses on that is Traneish. I'd love to see more discussion on this topic, come on everybody

[Soul Stream]

oh man, Soul Stream, right on......... I said that to a friend the other night. Especially if you listen to "Groovin at Smalls Paradise" the parallels are uncanny....... even the stop choice Jimmy uses on that is Traneish. I'd love to see more discussion on this topic, come on everybody

Yeah, Groovin' At Smalls. NOBODY was playing the changes like that on ANY instrument at that time.

[Joe]

The following is not meant to dispute any claims about Trane picking up a lot of knowledge from JOS... but I seem to recall an interview / anecdote in which Trane claims that he used to awake in the middle of the night and hear "those organ chords screaming at me" -- or words to that effect.

This ring any bells with anyone else?

[Soul Stream]

The following is not meant to dispute any claims about Trane picking up a lot of knowledge from JOS... but I seem to recall an interview / anecdote in which Trane claims that he used to awake in the middle of the night and hear "those organ chords screaming at me" -- or words to that effect.

This ring any bells with anyone else?

Yes, I think I actually dug that up from a Trane interview. I think it's in the old thread if it can be found. But yes, that is true.

[connoisseur series500]

There was a live interview of Jimmy Smith, where he mentioned that he had influenced Trane. I don't remember the website, but I was able to listen to the interview. I think it was a British program. Sorry, but I lost the link.

[CJ Shearn]

oh yeah, a live BBC thing.... but it's true it is interesting when you hear the kind of shapes Jimmy's lines had back then, it proves he was not just a soul jazz and blues player like a lot of people think. I know many who are not even aware of the mid 50's JOS that shows all that incredible playing.

Edited February 21, 2006 by CJ Shearn

[GregN]

"those organ chords screaming at me" -- or words to that effect.

This ring any bells with anyone else?

Rings bells for me, but for different reasons, (inside joke directed at Mr Alfredson and his stage volume...ahem).

Kiddin' Jim.

Coltrane probably took from a lot of folks. This doesn't surprise me a bit. Some of the live stuff I've heard from Jimmy Smith, when I first heard it, I thought he may have lifted from Coltrane, but the other way around doesn't surprise me either. Maybe it were a two way street? Or maybe there is a third party of influence not yet mentioned? (not trying to get esoteric here)

g

[CJ Shearn]

interesting theory Greg. Would you care to expound on what the third party of influence might be? I believe around '56-7 Trane was studying the Slonimsky book of scales, perhaps JOS had studied that as well? Certainly, to my ear the modal influences in Jimmy's playing is made explicitly clear in tunes like "Greensleeves"(made 4 years after Trane's version) "Refractions", "The Boss", "Fingers" and even some of the funky stuff from "Root Down". And of course the title track of "Legacy" with Joey D. finds Jimmy mining modal territory as well.

Edited February 21, 2006 by CJ Shearn

[JSngry]

http://lastlinkontheleft.com/fc0502.html#f1051

Jimmy Oliver

Jazz tenor saxophone palyer

When Oliver was 15, he took up the sax and dropped out of high school after the 11th grade. He bought what he thought was an alto saxophone, but when the store delivered the horn, it turned out to be a tenor sax almost as big as he was. When World War II started, most of the musicians in a band he was playing with were drafted. Oliver was classed 4-F and never served. When he was 18, Oliver started playing the clubs and found himself working with Charlie Parker, Lester Young, Ben Webster, Pearl Bailey and drummer Max Roach.

In the late 1940s, Oliver encountered a Philadelphia saxophonist named John Coltrane, who many said was strongly influenced by Oliver's playing. "Early on I was branded with having the Philadelphia sound," Oliver said in a 1996 interview. "I came along before Trane, and so I had a step or two on him." His love for his family and his fear of getting heavily into drugs, as many of his fellow musicians had done, kept him in Philadelphia. He turned his back on chances to hit the road and seek a national reputation. "I didn't want New York to give me an early grave," Oliver said.

February 4, 2005 at age 80. Heart failure.

For that matter...

http://www.organissimo.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=16900

Edited February 21, 2006 by JSngry

[johnagrandy]

Which JS recording should I buy first ? ( Assuming I have none, which is a true assumption. )

[Allan Songer]

Which JS recording should I buy first ? ( Assuming I have none, which is a true assumption. )

Most of us here probably started with "The Sermon," and that would be a good choice but I think one of the early BLue Note trio dates like "Goovin' at Smalls Paradise" or "The Incredible Jimmy Smith, vol. 3" might be better . . .

I can't beleive someone on THIS board wouldn't have any Jimmy Smith . . . . .

[Soul Stream]

Which JS recording should I buy first ? ( Assuming I have none, which is a true assumption. )

Most of us here probably started with "The Sermon," and that would be a good choice but I think one of the early BLue Note trio dates like "Goovin' at Smalls Paradise" or "The Incredible Jimmy Smith, vol. 3" might be better . . .

I can't beleive someone on THIS board wouldn't have any Jimmy Smith . . . . .

Yes, I would echo this. In truth "The Sermon" is the perfect place to start imho. Once you're tuned into that, get Groovin' At Small's Paradise and blow your mind.

[Shawn]

My personal favorites have always been the one-two punch of Midnight Special & Back At The Chicken Shack.

[CJ Shearn]

after "The Sermon" see if you can grab "Houseparty" its companion and "Cool Blues" a live jam with similar personnel recorded a few months later. the albums "At the Organ" from 1957 will blow your mind as well, theres a lot of amazing organ playing there John, as there is on "The Sounds of Jimmy Smith" which is readily available as an RVG. I have the Mosaic box, so I skipped the "Sounds of" RVG.

[johnagrandy]

I can't beleive someone on THIS board wouldn't have any Jimmy Smith . . . . .

I have lots of Larry Young , that counts ... right ?

... and how 'bout Robert Walter ? You guys should check this cat out !

BTW, anyone know what Anthony Coleman is up to these days ?

[Guest akanalog]

johnagr.... check out "at the organ vol. 2". great stuff. art blakey really adds a nice flavor to the mix.

this album has some really progressive stuff and some more straight stuff on it.

i have heard most every smith blue note album and this one is my favorite.

in fact, i sold the rest of them but this one is in my top 10 jazz albums....

[clifford_thornton]

I sold all my Jimmy Smith records some time ago, but wouldn't mind having a nice deepgroove of The Sermon.

As for cross-pollination, that's how all of it happens! I'm not at all surprised, especially as much of a listener as Trane was, and vice-versa would make some sense too.

[AllenLowe]

Coleman lives in NYC, gigs mostly out of the country - I talked to him a few days ago -

[Noj]

Wow, I'll NEVER sell my Jimmy Smith albums. To each his own.

[Guest akanalog]

Wow, I'll NEVER sell my Jimmy Smith albums. To each his own.

jimmy smith's "at the organ vol. 2" was the first jazz album i bought, if that means anything....

the rest all have come and gone but this disc is the undisputed champion of my jazz collection!

[Guy Berger]

My favorite is Back at the Chicken Shack. I think I like Cool Blues a little better than the Sermon.

Guy

[clifford_thornton]

Wow, I'll NEVER sell my Jimmy Smith albums. To each his own.

The only organist I really listen to is Larry Young. Sorry to Jim, and everybody else!

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

It depends what you want out of JOS.

If you want great Bebop playing, you want "The Champ" first, then "Sermon", "House Party", "At the organ" - vol 1 particularly for its beautiful "Summertime" and "All day long" - and one of the first Smiffs I bought - "at Club Baby Grand", the original trio live and leaping (why does no one ever mention these two LPs?).

If you want great Soul Jazz then it's "Midnight Special", "Chicken Shack", "Home Cookin'", "Rockin' the Boat", "Respect", "The Boss", "Bucket", "It's necssary" (OOP), "Organ Grinder swing" and "Damn!".

I don't doubt that lots of Philadelphia musicians learned a lot from each other. Same goes for Chicago players and Memphis players. Anything else would seem to be bizarre.

MG

[Joe G]

Which JS recording should I buy first ? ( Assuming I have none, which is a true assumption. )

I can't beleive someone on THIS board wouldn't have any Jimmy Smith . . . . .

Wow, I'll NEVER sell my Jimmy Smith albums. To each his own.

The only organist I really listen to is Larry Young. Sorry to Jim, and everybody else!

I was about to post that I, of all people, don't own any Jimmy Smith albums, but then I remembered that I do have Further Adventures of Jimmy and Wes. But, I hear plenty of it on the road with Jim.