Herbie ripped-off Miles for Head Hunters ??

[johnagrandy]

From an Amazon review ........ thought provoking:

"Herbie Hancock owes much of this album's success to Miles Davis, because he took Miles' vision of a polyrhythmic union of jazz, funk and rock and created an extremely accessible, million-selling record. Was that a good thing? Did the student become the master, or did he in fact soil the master? Depends on how you like your rock/jazz/funk.

Back in 1968 and 1969, Miles saw where music was heading, and as usual he was at the forefront of it all. He was hanging out with Jimi Hendrix, while at the same time soaking in the music of James Brown and Sly and the Family Stone. Sly in particular intrigued both Miles and Hancock, who had been a part of Miles' classic sixties quintet along with Ron Carter, Wayne Shorter, and the great Tony Williams. One of the great jazz pianists of all time, Hancock watched as Miles gradually stretched the quintet as far as it could go musically, then began to add electric instruments in an attempt to add a heavier, more rock/funk element to his music.

Miles gradually changed his lineup to fulfill this vision, adding musicians like Chick Corea and John McLaughlin who played electric piano and guitar, respectively. He plugged in Herbie's piano and his own trumpet, just to see what kind of sounds he could make:

The results were stunning: In a few short years, he churned out masterpieces such as Miles In The Sky, Filles de Kilimanjaro, In A Silent Way, Bitches Brew, and Jack Johnson -- and he was just getting warmed up. He was planning his crowning glory, the one album that would get his music across to a younger group of fans currently grooving to people like Sly, James Brown, George Clinton, and Curtis Mayfield, and place himself (and therefore much of jazz) firmly in that camp. That album was On The Corner.

I am not here to say that On The Corner is better than Headhunters. In fact, I would call On The Corner a noble failure. Released in 1972, On The Corner was a dense, swirling mudslide of grooves that was roundly rejected by all audiences. Not only was it a commercial flop, On The Corner was savaged by jazz purists and rock critics alike. The great Lester Bangs called On The Corner "a form of suicide, or at least an artistically perverse act of the highest order." But one man was watching, and his name was Herbie Hancock.

Released one year later, in 1973, Headhunters should be called "On The Corner Lite", or "On The Corner And Accessible". Headhunters also became the best-selling jazz LP of all time during that year. Think Miles was upset about that? Well, he was -- so much so that he put down his trumpet not long after -- and didn't pick it up again for years and years.

Again, this is not to bash Headhunters. Hancock saw what Miles wanted to do, and quite frankly did it correctly. "

[JSngry]

Hmmmmm...........

No.

[Guy Berger]

No mention of the Mwandishi group either.

Guy

[Spontooneous]

Serves Miles right, for all the s#*t he stole from Chet.

[chris olivarez]

Hmmmmm...........

No.

Likewise....No. More power to them both for putting it on the line.

[jazzbo]

Thanks. I really like starting my day off with a good laugh! Got a good one out of this thread!

Edited February 22, 2006 by jazzbo

[mikeweil]

Considering Herbie's interest in funk goes way back before even the Fat Albert Rotunda album to that rejected Blue Note session (one track was included in the Blue Note Herbie box set and the Lost Sessions CD), and that integrating rock and funk rhythms into jazz was in the air even before Miles jumped on the bandwagon - Tony Williams' Lifetime was much more daring in this respect - I'd say "No". Comparing Miles's use of rock riffs and drum patterns to Lifetime makes him sound rather tame - until the Cellar Door band, that is.

I always thought Miles also had a rather conservative side to himself, or preservative - once he had a band that worked, he hated to see them leave: Coltrane, and deJohnette (read in the Cellar Door booklet how Miles and Keith Jarrett pleaded he stay in the band!) are good examples. But, being a Gemini, he had an urge to move on at the same time ...

Edited February 22, 2006 by mikeweil

[AllenLowe]

as was said, this whole approach was in the air, manifest in different ways - some of Alan Holdsworth's early stuff beats US-made fusion, and also let's not forget Graham Bond - also Bloodwyn Pig -

[JSngry]

Thanks. I really like starting my day off with a good laugh! Got a good one out of this thread!

For sure!

Here's the part that really gets me:

Released one year later, in 1973, Headhunters should be called "On The Corner Lite", or "On The Corner And Accessible". Headhunters also became the best-selling jazz LP of all time during that year. Think Miles was upset about that? Well, he was -- so much so that he put down his trumpet not long after -- and didn't pick it up again for years and years.

The image of a Miles retreating into a self-pitying funk stemming from "commercial rejection" a la Brian Wilson after Pet Sounds or Phil Spector after "River Deep, Mountain High" is just too damn funny! (to say nothing of being totally ignorant of the painful physical ailments that Miles had been battling at the time, which is what (supposedly) drove him towards heavier & heavier drug use, which in turn is what finally led to him just calling time out for a while).

I mean, can you hear it?

"Shit, man, Herbie copped all my m=f=in' shit and had a m-f-'in Gold Record with it. It's all over, m-f'ers never gonna listen to me no more. They're all out to get me. Keith, Chick, Wayne, Joe, even that crazy m=fer Airto. ALL them m-fers. It's useless, I give up. Teo, stop the m-f-in' tapes. I'm goin' home. Call the crib and tell whatever m-f-in' bitch answers to have an eightball and a box of m-fin' Kleenex ready, I'm gonna be gone for a while. DAMN that m-f-in' Herbie Hancocksucker..."

I...don't...think so...

[bertrand]

Don't forget that Bitches' Brew was inspired by Mother Ship...

Bertrand.

[md655321]

"When Herbie Hancock put out his Headhunters album and it sold like hotcakes...everybody at Columbia said, 'oh, so thats what Miles was talking about!' But this was too late for On the Corner, and watching the way Headhunters sold just pissed me off even more." - Miles Davis, pg 328-9 in his autiobiography.

Still, this thread is quite humorous and fundamentally misunderstands Miles' approach to music.

Edited February 22, 2006 by md655321

[johnagrandy]

"When Herbie Hancock put out his Headhunters album and it sold like hotcakes...everybody at Columbia said, 'oh, so thats what Miles was talking about!' But this was too late for On the Corner, and watching the way Headhunters sold just pissed me off even more." - Miles Davis, pg 328-9 in his autiobiography.

Still, this thread is quite humorous and fundamentally misunderstands Miles' approach to music.

"This thread" misunderstands Miles' approach to music ? Meaning everyone on this thread ?

You might want to re-read the 1st post (mine). It's a quote verbatim from an Amazon.com review (I left out the reviewer's name, but obviously it can be searched for).

I thought what he had to say was thought-provoking ...

[md655321]

By this thread I mean the original post of yours.

As Jim pointed out, to even imply that in any way the success of the Headhunters would any effect on Miles' decision to retire is flat our ridiculous. But even moreso, the original review disregarded Herbie's contributions as well. The funk of On The Corner was hardly a one time deal, and it was something that Miles pursued quite in-depth. Herbie was aiming for something that was very different, and he achieved it. Its wasnt ripping off Miles, it was exploring the funk that many were doing at the time. Guy was right bringing up Mwandishi, an electric band of Herbie's that I suppose you dont know about or havent heard. They were doing electric jazz funk in 1969, WELL before On the Corner.

I think the completely dismissive responses to this thread tell us a great deal about validity of the amazon review.

[johnagrandy]

Just 'cause I post some theory from Amazon here doesn't mean I agree with it. My knowledge of HH post-Miles 2nd 5tet begins with Head Hunters. I've heard Mwandishi but I don't own any.

Anyway, the bit you posted from the Miles AB does imply that Miles saw where the music was going to have to go to a reach a mass audience but didn't hit the target and that angered him. Question is was he mad only at himself, or at others.