Stanley Crouch

[Big Al]

Still going, last I checked (last week), and Lois continues to post any positive review she can find. Her posts are not numerous, I might add.

Over 1700 posts and still going strong. Unbelievable.

[Dan Gould]

Still going, last I checked (last week), and Lois continues to post any positive review she can find. Her posts are not numerous, I might add.

Over 1700 posts and still going strong. Unbelievable.

Has Crouch returned since his second post?

[Christiern]

I don't think so, Dan.

[Dan Gould]

I don't think so, Dan.

Then how the heck does it sustain itself?

On second thought, forget I asked.

[Big Al]

Yeah, I just looked at the post count itself. I didn't actually read the thing.

If you wanna see how it sustains itself, just read the last page. Keep a barf bag handy, though.

[Christiern]

Yeah, I just looked at the post count itself. I didn't actually read the thing.

If you wanna see how it sustains itself, just read the last page. Keep a barf bag handy, though.

I just took a look down there at the thread treading. Thanks, BW, the barf bag came in handy. It seems to have come down to the troll, who has a high school crush on Wynton, the babbling Bush biker, and the main contrarian, who reads race into everything and appears to have edged ahead of the rainy Oaklander in that department. They all deserve each other and the web dominatrix deserves them all.

[Chalupa]

Sorry to drag this up again BUT I just have to share this...

I was listening to the Max Roach/Cecil Taylor "Historic Concerts" double LP on Soul Note yesterday. Anyway, in the liner notes I found this little gem by Crouch,

"Now that Max Roach has stepped into the arena of "free" music, it must be clear that the music is valid and that the work of the aforementioned innovators cannot be dismissed any longer. ~ Published in the Soho Weekly News, January 10, 1980.

Dang.

Has anyone ever asked him what lead him to his "conversion"? Does he disown his early writings?

Edited June 1, 2008 by J.H. Deeley

[Rooster_Ties]

Well, here's something I posted about the man, on a similar theme back in 2004...

I heard Crouch speak back in February (2004), in person, as a part of a panel discussion at Washington University (in St. Louis). It was a round-table discussion about "Public intellectuals". All the other participants were academics (here's who was there, about 6 total), except Crouch, obviously. He was outgunned, intellectually, to say the least (who wouldn't be) -- but my problem with Crouch was that much of what he said was basically nonsense (wish I could remember some details), and that he sure as hell liked to hear himself talk.

Well, one thing I do remember...

Crouch, in one of his many tangents that really didn't have much to do with the discussion that was going on around him, make a perfectly reasonable argument for why Miles should have gone electric (in fact, maybe even "needed" to go electric), and why Sun Ra and Coltrane, and other free-jazz artists, were perfectly reasonable to go down the "Free" paths they went.

No, Crouch never mentioned jazz specifically, but he mentioned a number of authors, including Herman Melville, Jack Kerouac, and J.D. Salinger (and maybe one or two others), and how they were all justified, no -- more like obligated -- to try new things, to go where no author had gone before, even if it meant pissing off the majority of critics and the public alike. His implication was that the public just needed to catch up with them. Crouch actually said something like "artistic expression that doesn't move forward, just withers on the vine" -- or something like that.

Of course, this was a total disingenuous argument, when you consider Crouch's conservative opinions about jazz. I about nearly fell out of my seat, and it was all I could do not to bust up laughing in fairly large hall full of students and faculty, and other public, semi-public, and private "intellectuals".

The sense I got, from this event, was that Crouch was mostly full of shit. Not entirely, but mostly.

Edited June 1, 2008 by Rooster_Ties

[Teasing the Korean]

This discussion needs to be moved far far away from the ARTISTS thread. If you want to start a "Frauds" thread, that would be an appropriate place to move this.

[Christiern]

Watch it, T the K, next thing you know, the O's venomous lunatic fringe will crawl from under their rock and accuse you of being envious of Crouch's good looks and talent!

[bluemonk]

Who cares what Stanley Crouch thinks? He's a no talent, waste of human space.

Why would I care what a jazz critic thinks of a jazz musician? I don't care. I'm musician and the only critic I need is myself. I know whether or not I did good or bad and I don't need somebody pointing out my obvious mistakes that I know I made. I don't need any "pointers" from a pompous, egotistical, fat ass, know-it-all who plays backgammon every Tuesday with the Marsalis brothers.

Edited June 2, 2008 by bluemonk

[ATR]

My first exposure to Crouch was seeing him play drums for a David Murray trio at Studio Rivbea, substituting for Sonny Fortune at the last minute sometime back in '75 or '76. We walked out and got our money back. Then again, we didn't care for Murray at the time, either. Recently, though, I read in George Lewis' AACM book that Muhal Richard Abrams credited him with being a decent writer of melodies (IIRC). Nice to know he can write something, even if we've never heard them.

At any rate, Mr. Crouch reviewed Jerome Cooper's Unpredictability of Predictability record on About Time for the Village Voice, concluding that although Bert the Cat was great, the first side suite was too influenced by contemporary European Classical music. In response, Mr. Cooper wrote and recorded 'The Crouch Opinion' on Outer and Interactions, also for About Time.

I've never been assaulted physically by Mr. Crouch. His manner, on the one occasion I spoke to him, was a bit patronizing. I'm still waiting for 'Outlaws and Gladiators', his book about avant garde jazz. I guess it was permanently shelved when he went to Lincoln Center, but it's funny. Even though Crouch wrote some of the lessons for the Lincoln Center/NEA Jazz in the Schools program, their curriculum includes Braxton, Threadgill, and Douglas. As well as Crouch's (excuse the expression) bete noire, Bitches Brew. If you've seen the film Miles Electric, you know what I mean. And if you haven't, check it out for one of Mr. Crouch's most strident diatribes.

As for what happened to him, who knows? I don't know him personally. I've heard musicians call him 'The Benedict Arnold of Jazz', which seems to fit.

Edited June 3, 2008 by ATR

[Late]

And you know what Sam Rivers's wallet looks like: Bad Mutha Fucka!

More than two years tardy in saying that this comment still made me laugh.

[bluemonk]

Stanley Crouch has caused more destruction in jazz than Kenny G.

Crouch, as far as I'm concerned, has always been an enemy of this music. He is the epitome of the words "jazz purist." Everyone who listens to jazz knows it has progressed. I don't need a damn pinhead like Crouch, or any other jazz critic for that matter, telling me otherwise.

[Captain Hate]

Yeah, I just looked at the post count itself. I didn't actually read the thing.

If you wanna see how it sustains itself, just read the last page. Keep a barf bag handy, though.

I just took a look down there at the thread treading. Thanks, BW, the barf bag came in handy. It seems to have come down to the troll, who has a high school crush on Wynton, the babbling Bush biker, and the main contrarian, who reads race into everything and appears to have edged ahead of the rainy Oaklander in that department. They all deserve each other and the web dominatrix deserves them all.

This might be some of the most accurate satire on the innerwebz.

[Larry Kart]

Stanley Crouch has caused more destruction in jazz than Kenny G.

Crouch, as far as I'm concerned, has always been an enemy of this music. He is the epitome of the words "jazz purist." Everyone who listens to jazz knows it has progressed. I don't need a damn pinhead like Crouch, or any other jazz critic for that matter, telling me otherwise.

Stanley is no "jazz purist," even when the phrase is encased in quotes. He's a Stanley purist.

[JSngry]

As always, the dogma was a smokescreen for a money/power grab.

And now Wynton & Willie Nelson are releasing an album together. On Blue Note.

[Christiern]

I may see Stanley at a J@LC meeting this week. In fact, Schaap may be there, too.

[Larry Kart]

I may see Stanley at a J@LC meeting this week. In fact, Schaap may be there, too.

Will you all be passing through a metal detector?

[Christiern]

I may go as Rosie Grier (sans needlework, of course)

[Chuck Nessa]

I may see Stanley at a J@LC meeting this week. In fact, Schaap may be there, too.

No OK?

A trifecta would be nice.

[Big Al]

I may see Stanley at a J@LC meeting this week. In fact, Schaap may be there, too.

No OK?

A trifecta would be nice.

The facility may not be big enough for all three egos.

[Tom Storer]

In an interview with one of the French jazz magazines a few years ago, an interviewer asked David Murray what had happened to Stanley Crouch, a Murray acolyte before becoming a Marsalis acolyte. "He turned into an asshole" was the succinct response.

[AllenLowe]

are you sure he wasn't talking about himself?

[Tom Storer]

Perhaps he was just projecting.