johnagrandy Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 (edited) Can anyone explain this guy ? Especially if you've had personal dealings with the man. I hear nothing but bad ... and check this out (!) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Crouch Edited February 14, 2006 by johnagrandy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ep1str0phy Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 This is my favorite part: "Crouch likes to fight. He has punched and threatened some of those who cross him." Frankly, I don't think this guy is worth lambasting anymore. He long ago lapsed into the realm of caricature--and, seriously, most anti-Crouch comments have no recourse but dismissive vitriol. It's hard not to be polarized. How do you deal with this asshole? Let him have his tea parties with WM. Crazy-ass failed-avant-garde drummer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 Before he re-invented himself as The Champion Of The All That Is Pure, he was actually a halfway astute chronicler of the NYC loft scene. He also wrote some pretty good liner notes for the BN two-fer LP reissue of the Herbie Nichols session. But that was long, long ago, in a galaxy far far away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DukeCity Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 A few weeks ago I went to the Village Vanguard on a Monday night to hear the VJO. The place was packed and Stanley Crouch comes in in the middle of the first set. He stands in the back of the room for a couple of minutes, and then, in the middle of a tune, he walks around the side of the room, sidles up to and basically onto the bandstand (kind of between the bari sax and the bone section) and checks out the rest of the tune, distracting Gary Smulyan and the bone section more than a little. After the tune is over, John Mosca is talking to the crowd, introducing the soloists, etc. And then Mosca is compelled to introduce the visiting dignitary, SC. The crowd gives tepid applause for SC and he takes a bow. Eight bars into the next tune, now that SC has had his moment in the spotlight, he gets up and goes back to the dark corners of the room. Classy! After the set, one of the band members introduces a young tenor player to Stanley. Of course, SC takes this as his cue to impart some knowledge on the young'n: "Don't run all your chords; you'll sound better that way." Thanks for the tip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalo Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 The guy used to actually have something to say. What happened? We all know that absolute power corrupts absolutely, but SC proves that even the tiniest sip can undo some folks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spontooneous Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 He came to Kansas City in 2004 to deliver a lecture before the Charlie Parker Memorial Concert. After all, Crouch has supposedly been working on a book about Bird for 20 years. So he's well-prepared and well-qualified for this, right? The so-called lecture is about 10 painful minutes of free-form rambling and joking, centering on Bird's love for the ladies. I've heard better and more persuasive lectures from wild-eyed drunks at bus stops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 This is ironic: "Crouch is a fierce critic of gangsta rap music, primarily its promotion of violence..." Should I believe all these fighting stories, or not? Wikipedia is not always the most reliable source. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ep1str0phy Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 This is ironic: "Crouch is a fierce critic of gangsta rap music, primarily its promotion of violence..." Should I believe all these fighting stories, or not? Wikipedia is not always the most reliable source. Man, he's like a folk villain already. This is too much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 This is ironic: "Crouch is a fierce critic of gangsta rap music, primarily its promotion of violence..." Should I believe all these fighting stories, or not? Wikipedia is not always the most reliable source. The Grouch attitude was discussed in this previous thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christiern Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 I used to get along with him quite well, but he has turned into a colossal, opportunistic ass of no significance to the jazz community. As for the Wikipedia piece, it is largely accurate, although it is rather sad to think that Stanley may be best known for Don't the Moon Look Lonesome?, a novel no one seems to have taken seriously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnagrandy Posted February 14, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 (edited) This is ironic: "Crouch is a fierce critic of gangsta rap music, primarily its promotion of violence..." Should I believe all these fighting stories, or not? Wikipedia is not always the most reliable source. The Grouch attitude was discussed in this previous thread. Wow. I actually read that entire thread. Even the literary stuff I have little to no clue about (I have read all of Graham Greene however - who perhaps was too coldly realistic and self-experiential a writer to find his work involved in those sorts of debates). Here is what makes no sense: Wynton leads the vanguard of jazz as Black American Classical Music communicated by serious, sober, clearly visibly intelligent (even intellectual) educated gentlemen who communicate emotion and experience in a proper, even in a somewhat narrowly conformist , but definitely civilized manner, modeling on the long tradition of many other American art forms with less "checkered" pasts ... ... not by eccentric junk geniuses. "Get the junkies out of jazz." : wasn't that really what was going on at Columbia in the early 80s ? So why would Marsalis wish to continue to exert his considerable influence (cultural and financial) to assist Grouch ... a man clearly incapable of living the life of an intellectual ? Edited February 14, 2006 by johnagrandy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DTMX Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 (edited) This is my favorite part: "Crouch likes to fight. He has punched and threatened some of those who cross him." My favorite part was when Sam Rivers decked the Grouch: (Eugene Chadbourne talking:) "I saw Stanley Crouch get decked by Sam Rivers one time, that was a great experience, Sam Rivers laid him out cold right on the stage." - Rick Lopez' Sam Rivers Sessionography site Edited February 14, 2006 by DTMX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claude Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 then was confronted by Matthew Shipp himself who called Crouch "an Uncle Tom and a fucking loser". I admire the level of detail on Wikipedia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 Crouch has many problems; he has, however, done a LOT of important research on Bird, research that will likely never see the light of day, as there is little chance that he will write the Bird bio - I have seen some of the raw info, interviews, etc and they need to be available - I am hoping that someday he will publish it at least in its transcribed form - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fer Urbina Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 Crouch has many problems; he has, however, done a LOT of important research on Bird, research that will likely never see the light of day, as there is little chance that he will write the Bird bio - I have seen some of the raw info, interviews, etc and they need to be available - I am hoping that someday he will publish it at least in its transcribed form - That's easy then. Let him shed the limelight, retire to write the definitive and monumental biography of Charlie Parker, and then return to wide academic and public acclaim. F Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robviti Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 ...he has turned into a colossal, opportunistic ass of no significance to the jazz community. agreed. so why the hell is this thread in the artists forum? oh, i get it. he's a bullshit artist! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 If I looked in my mirror and saw Stanley Crouch, I think I'd probably be more than a little perplexed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fasstrack Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 If I looked in my mirror and saw Stanley Crouch, I think I'd probably be more than a little perplexed. And a little less than poor..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 The first thing I'd say would probably be, "Hey! Mona!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 (Eugene Chadbourne talking:) "I saw Stanley Crouch get decked by Sam Rivers one time, that was a great experience, Sam Rivers laid him out cold right on the stage." - Rick Lopez' Sam Rivers Sessionography site And you know what Sam Rivers's wallet looks like: Bad Mutha Fucka! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheldonm Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 (Eugene Chadbourne talking:) "I saw Stanley Crouch get decked by Sam Rivers one time, that was a great experience, Sam Rivers laid him out cold right on the stage." - Rick Lopez' Sam Rivers Sessionography site And you know what Sam Rivers's wallet looks like: Bad Mutha Fucka! ....must have been a hell of a swing; the last time I saw Sam, he was about 80 pounds with his clothes on! m~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ep1str0phy Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 This is my favorite part: "Crouch likes to fight. He has punched and threatened some of those who cross him." My favorite part was when Sam Rivers decked the Grouch: (Eugene Chadbourne talking:) "I saw Stanley Crouch get decked by Sam Rivers one time, that was a great experience, Sam Rivers laid him out cold right on the stage." - Rick Lopez' Sam Rivers Sessionography site Sam is badass. Then again... not saying that Crouch didn't deserve it, but Sam can't be proud of (partly) going down as the man who decked SC. Sam comes across as such an intelligent, beatific presence that it startles me to think that he was driven to such extremes. There's a difference between being an asshole and being a flat-out, sociopathic instigator--the latter of which must apply to Crouch. Regardless of his history, it is doubly evident that Stan-the-man is and has been making a conscious effort to alienate himself from the community of his youth--and in a wild, fatuous, irrational manner. At this point, it's like Crouch is taking pre-emptive measures to ensure first blood in a cycle of continuous rejection... and it'll just keep devolving. I hate to invoke the words, but I've seen few men who so completely typify the "nigga" mentality. Whatever his contributions to scholarship, that's a damn shame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcello Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 I would assume that the knock-out came when Crouch was a drummer during the NYC loft days. I also think that it is apparent that his worth as a influence in the jazz world has waned quite a bit. The music can't afford such a hateful parasite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DTMX Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 Sam is badass. Then again... not saying that Crouch didn't deserve it, but Sam can't be proud of (partly) going down as the man who decked SC. Sam comes across as such an intelligent, beatific presence that it startles me to think that he was driven to such extremes. There's a difference between being an asshole and being a flat-out, sociopathic instigator--the latter of which must apply to Crouch. I think it had to do with Crouch organizing competing gigs during the loft scene days, and screwing up the RivBea scene by luring musicians away with lies and threats. Granted, the reasons might not look good on paper, but having Stanley Crouch up in his face at that moment might have been enough to push Sam over the edge. I've never exchanged more than a few words with him, but Sam Rivers seems like the nicest, coolest person in the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 That makes sense - I wouldn't think Crouch, Rivers and Chadbourne would be in the same room in any other context than a loft gig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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