Warne feat. Larry Knoose

[Guest]

friend just emailmed me "out of nowhere" with the afformentioned date and place attached to it- a near-final statement from warne- MANY tenor saxophonists are said to be influential and to have broke new ground as far as jazz sax is concerned, but for me, i consider the tenor sax lineage of melodic improvisation to be Lester Young ---> Warne Marsh. Everything else to be is kind of like static (Coltrane, Gordon, et al)

It was upsetting hearing this Warne mp3 this knowing how nine days later he was dead after his solo, on this very same song, on the same stage-the same establishment- just 9 days later. It is upsetting to me that Warne was using cocaine so late in his life. in the Chamberlin bio i know it talks a lot about how warne learned from lennie about clearing his mind before a solo, making sure his body is in a good sate of being, etc etc-

but the question i wish to pose her in the forum, is: do you really think Warne thought that coke would assist his mindstate or improvisiations. ***I cannot make the connection between the beautiful pacing of Warnes melodic soloing, with his use of the coke, which is sort of a "speed" like drug.*** it just doesnt add up. i have no personal expierence with it, but from what ive heard over the years- it seems to be more suited to a talking heads concert than to Warnes increadible, perfectly paced solos.

I realize this is a touchy subject, but there is nonetheless an inquiry here i would like some help comming to terms with-- the lives of so many greats have been analyzied time and time again-- but with warne there are a lot of unresolved issues......

[Allan Songer]

friend just emailmed me "out of nowhere" with the afformentioned date and place attached to it- a near-final statement from warne- MANY tenor saxophonists are said to be influential and to have broke new ground as far as jazz sax is concerned, but for me, i consider the tenor sax lineage of melodic improvisation to be Lester Young ---> Warne Marsh. Everything else to be is kind of like static (Coltrane, Gordon, et al)

It was upsetting hearing this Warne mp3 this knowing how nine days later he was dead after his solo, on this very same song, on the same stage-the same establishment- just 9 days later. It is upsetting to me that Warne was using cocaine so late in his life. in the Chamberlin bio i know it talks a lot about how warne learned from lennie about clearing his mind before a solo, making sure his body is in a good sate of being, etc etc-

but the question i wish to pose her in the forum, is: do you really think Warne thought that coke would assist his mindstate or improvisiations. ***I cannot make the connection between the beautiful pacing of Warnes melodic soloing, with his use of the coke, which is sort of a "speed" like drug.*** it just doesnt add up. i have no personal expierence with it, but from what ive heard over the years- it seems to be more suited to a talking heads concert than to Warnes increadible, perfectly paced solos.

I realize this is a touchy subject, but there is nonetheless an inquiry here i would like some help comming to terms with-- the lives of so many greats have been analyzied time and time again-- but with warne there are a lot of unresolved issues......

Who knows?

All I can tell you is that I heard Warne live dozens of times in the 80's and he never EVER seemed messed up on coke while performing. Unlike Art Pepper late in his life who seemed to be on some sort of "speed" or coke just about every time I heard him play--maybe that was just Pepper's weird demeanor, but he was always jumpy and agitated--just like his solos on fast tunes. Warne always seems cool, calm and totally in control.

Cocaine does effect different people in differet ways I suppose . . .

[JSngry]

Cocaine does effect different people in differet ways I suppose . . .

Indeed it does...

[relyles]

I don't remember anything in the Marsh biography indicating he thought his playing would be enhanced with the use of pharmaceuticals.

[ghost of miles]

Don't know at all about Marsh, but I think you can hear, to some degree, the impact of cocaine on Bill Evans' playing in the 1979-80 recordings.

No doubt about it, drugs can give a short-term boost to some artists' creativity. It's the long-term interest payback that gets to be a bitch.

[Guest]

thats interesting allan. maybe warne had better control over his instrument...

[Allan Songer]

thats interesting allan. maybe warne had better control over his instrument...

I don't think so. Pepper and Marsh both seemed to be able to do EXACTLY as they pleased with their horns.

They just had different approaches. Pepper was the most EMOTIONAL player I have ever heard--period. Marsh was detached, analytical by comparision.

Love both players, by the way.

Actually heard them together once--over 25 years ago now . . .

[Guest]

allan- it the chamberlin book said warned died playing 'out of nowhere', but is it possible he was indeed playing 317 E 32nd which is Out of nowhere CHANGES-- or was he truly playing the head "out of nowehere", the old standard.....i mention this because on many shows its denoted as out of nowhere if its out of nowhere changes...., depite the head bring played......

[clifford_thornton]

A lot of people do coke, some even into older age. Marion Brown was on it in the '80s and '90s, which contributed to some of his health problems. Frank Wright is rumored to have died as a result of a coke-induced heart attack. There are also those people who use it for a while and then kick after it's served its purpose, so there ya go.

[jazz4u]

This is Warne's son, Jason. I'm going to say this and then probably regret it later, but here it goes...

I'm not goint to deny my father having done 'whatever', but he was commited to not doing anything that would ever result in sloppy playing, which is why he never got into booz. I also think my father was one of the few people who could use and still keep it straight, even seperate the sensations from reality. He never had any extravagant, violent, or off the wall behavior.

As far as why he did so long into his life, well, my family has some of the many answers that question and you'll understand why I'm going to keep it all private.

In regards to Allan's comment as to my father's playing being detached , Im not sure I agree. My father made a destinction between emotion and feeling, as did Lennie. And for every person who thought my father's playing was detached, there is someone that thought my fathers use of time and advanced melodic ideas brought them (the listener) closer to something above and beyond all of us. My father never played an emotion (happiness, sadness, etc.). What he played was everything he 'was' as honestly as possible. For that reason, I think my father's playing asks some interesting questions, like 'How does one get to such a space?' Warne wasnt an 'off the street/learned through the school of hard knocks' player. He came from means. He practiced for hours and hours, learned advanced techniques, studied with a master, and didnt settle for anything fake in his playing. Is this what it takes to express yourself at such a level? If so, then my father shatters the myth that you have to 'suffer' to be great. But, Im not the ultimate judge by any means.

[Allan Songer]

Your father's music has brought me MUCH joy over the last 30-odd years. When I said "detatched" I meant EXACTLY what you so elequently wrote about Warne's playing. He and Art Pepper had TOTALLY different approaches and yet they played so beautifully together the one time I heard them live and on the 1/2 of a record they made together some 50 years ago.

I think I'll so spin "Music for Prancing" right now!

[fasstrack]

This is Warne's son, Jason. I'm going to say this and then probably regret it later, but here it goes...

I'm not goint to deny my father having done 'whatever', but he was commited to not doing anything that would ever result in sloppy playing, which is why he never got into booz. I also think my father was one of the few people who could use and still keep it straight, even seperate the sensations from reality. He never had any extravagant, violent, or off the wall behavior.

As far as why he did so long into his life, well, my family has some of the many answers that question and you'll understand why I'm going to keep it all private.

In regards to Allan's comment as to my father's playing being detached , Im not sure I agree. My father made a destinction between emotion and feeling, as did Lennie. And for every person who thought my father's playing was detached, there is someone that thought my fathers use of time and advanced melodic ideas brought them (the listener) closer to something above and beyond all of us. My father never played an emotion (happiness, sadness, etc.). What he played was everything he 'was' as honestly as possible. For that reason, I think my father's playing asks some interesting questions, like 'How does one get to such a space?' Warne wasnt an 'off the street/learned through the school of hard knocks' player. He came from means. He practiced for hours and hours, learned advanced techniques, studied with a master, and didnt settle for anything fake in his playing. Is this what it takes to express yourself at such a level? If so, then my father shatters the myth that you have to 'suffer' to be great. But, Im not the ultimate judge by any means.

I played with your dad once in the early 80s. Just a session at a mutual friend's home. But I remember to this day the impression, contours, and even content of what he played. He was really 'on' that day, too. It was thrilling. One lasting impression: the way he phrased ahead of the beat but never rushed reminded me of the Brazilian singers like Jaou Gilberto (sp?) or Elis Regina. Just a way of surging ahead with a forward motion that was so natural sounding and light and catching up with the time in such ingenious ways. He really was a source unto himself, too, though evolving out of Pres and others (I hear a lot of Bach study, too). Very heavy dude.

We hung out and took a break, all of us, and he regaled us with his philosophy on life---which seemed resigned, wise, and pretty damn funny. And I proudly remember him paying me the tersest, and perhaps most appreciated compliment of my young and less-than-mature musical life (I was 28):

Warne turned to me after we played and said "Yeah. What's your name?"

[Guest]

jaz4u: that is very interesting what you said about warne being of means/education as opposed to street life- and how that relates to his playing. His playing SOUNDS like hes a genius...

fastrack: can you share w/ us what this life philosophy of warne was, or were you just referring to his music...

[fasstrack]

jaz4u: that is very interesting what you said about warne being of means/education as opposed to street life- and how that relates to his playing. His playing SOUNDS like hes a genius...

fastrack: can you share w/ us what this life philosophy of warne was, or were you just referring to his music...

I meant life. I just remember sitting around my friend Jared's apartment and him breaking out a pipe and some reefer and sort of letting it rip verbally. One thing I remember him saying is that men go off and start wars and kill each other because they're jealous of (and to compensate for) women being able to create life by having babies. Hardly the only person to have made that observation, undoubtedly, but it sort of cracked me up at the time. I thought, here's a thinking cat! That's all I can remember of the conversation at the time, but we were sort of shooting the shit and mostly listening to him.

I remember more about the tunes we played. I remember one was Wes Montgomery's Twisted Blues, of all things. That wasn't Warne's call, I believe it was Jared's. We both knew it and Warne read it, so he didn't play as strong on that one as the ones he knew. His playing on those knocked everyone on their asses.

[jazz4u]

Allan,

Sorry for any misunderstandings and thanks for being a fan. Thanks to you too, c-lady and every ody else.

I feel that using dope perhaps gives a glimpse of another 'reality', so to speak, but never really takes you there.

Again, I think that a player like my father opens up a can of worms of serious questions about self expression. Whatever your chosen craft, how do you get to the point where you are in that 'zone'? From what I gather, at least with improvisational music, it appears to be a matter of accumilating skills enough to do it (skills relative what you want to express musically) , and being willing enough to be honest and take risks. But I dont know if the skills are getting inside you/becoming a part of you as you learn them and you're expressing those alone, or if the skills are a conduit (sp?) for what you have inside trying to get out, or some combination of both. And In the end, does a musician have to work that hard just to get to themselves? It almost doesnt seem fair. I sometimes think being made of flesh bones is a limitaion. Ive been playing bass for 16 years now and I still haven't been able to just 'let it out'.

What do you all think?

Yes, fasstrack, my father love Pres and Bach.

Jp

[Guest]

jazz4u: did your father listen to any of the famous Blue Note tenors, such as mobley, henderson, et al?

[fasstrack]

Again, I think that a player like my father opens up a can of worms of serious questions about self expression. Whatever your chosen craft, how do you get to the point where you are in that 'zone'? From what I gather, at least with improvisational music, it appears to be a matter of accumilating skills enough to do it (skills relative what you want to express musically) , and being willing enough to be honest and take risks.

As a person that struggles with anxiety that can trip up relaxation and being 'in the zone' when performing--letting it flow---this is on my mind a lot.

People that perform (or do a host of other things) in public use 'enhancers' for many reasons. Obviously the first one that comes to mind to most that might give this thought is that people know they can't tap into those creative goodies if they're uptight. But there's all kinds of uptight, right? Some dread criticism, some are shy and withdrawn, or unconfident. Then there are people---called dope fiends back in the day--- that just like to get high, period, and like to be with other people who are high too. There are as many variations, reasons, and excuses as there are personality types. I didn't know Warne beyond that one memorable day we hooked up, so I'll forego the armchair analysis, other than to say he seemed the inward, introspective type. But, hell, you would know better than me, so I'll leave that one the hell alone.

In my own case the devil is anxiety. Nerves are the enemy of music. If I get uptight I can't hear, think other players may be talking shit about me on the stand, and a host of other things I wont bore you all with, this not being a discussion of me. But I think your observation about being preprared vis a vis practicing and knowing the material beforehand is of course very true. You practice to eliminate the physical difficulties of control on the instrument, to learn tunes, to get into new areas, to stay mentally alert, etc. But you can also practice relaxing. Not only playing relaxed, but it seems to me a lot of people, myself included, deny themselves and the audience by not practicing mental/physical/spiritual relaxation. When you do this you can do what Bird said: "learn your instrument, then forget all that shit and play", which I take to mean in part be and play in the moment and not just what you shedded. 'Now's the Time', right? I don't want to get too heavy with this either, but I think performers who find a way to shut off the bullshit---the dross in their minds--- and listen to and tap into the music, not only in their own little self-absorbed worlds of 'self-expression', but on the stand and all around them and practice stand the best chance of being not only artists but communicators and people who make the world a better place by performing.

And I think whatever struggles your dad in particular might have had with this stuff, the fruits of inner investigation, thought/reflection, practice, and emotion really came out in his work. I don't want to end by starting a debate here, but emotion comes in all shades. Some people, like the Warne Marshes or Jim Halls of the world, are more subtle and don't, can't, or best of all won't beat you over the head with it. I enjoy the better of the 'head beaters'' too, BTW, (but really cherish mature players who can hold back, relax, and especially leave you wanting a little more). Everything in its time and space.

[Guest]

never heard anyone say that before but you are so right: nevres are the enemy of music

[fasstrack]

never heard anyone say that before but you are so right: nevres are the enemy of music

Talk to any honest, non-loaded musician and they'll tell you some variation or degree of the same. Every sensitive person, performer or no, suffers from nerves. Some do a better job of losing it or even 'using' it thsn others.

Edited February 17, 2006 by fasstrack

[JSngry]

Nerves are indeed the enemy of the music, yet nerve is its backbone.

Go figure that.

[fasstrack]

Nerves are indeed the enemy of the music, yet nerve is its backbone.

Go figure that.

Well put.

[jazz4u]

I guess if you're not a little nervous, you're not normal. However, I think that ine my father's case, music was his life and his job. He just didnt know anything else, and couldnt do and didnt want to do anything else. Unrotunately, fasstrack and others, I dont know what level of anxiety he may have felt. But I do think that since recornding and performing was the only path he could have taken, and that that is really all he did with himself, that nerves perhaps weren't that big of an issue for him. I have this image in my mind of my father thinking 'shit' when he messed up while playing, and then forgetting about it and playing on.

ctemplady: I wish I knew the answer. I think Bird and Pres were his biggest influences.

Fasstrack: Nerves suck me dry, too. They hamper everything from improv jazz to learning new Japanese vocabulalry. And yes, my dad was inward...to a fault.

[JSngry]

Jason, are you familiar w/Lee Konitz' quote to the effect that Warne had trouble opening up, but that when he did, it was something to hear? That's not an exact quote, but that's the gist of it as I recall it.

[fasstrack]

But I do think that since recornding and performing was the only path he could have taken, and that that is really all he did with himself, that nerves perhaps weren't that big of an issue for him. I have this image in my mind of my father thinking 'shit' when he messed up while playing, and then forgetting about it and playing on.

I hear that. Good for him. Trying to get to that place myself, and slowly it's happening. Once you take your eye off the ball it's gone---and so's your ass...

It's weird, though: (over) introspection is what leads to the nerves---as well as the artistic goodies. Double-edged sword.

Still, if you don't take the inner journey 'outer' no one will ever know about it. It's the difference between communication and playing (even playing great) at home or in a rehearsal band.

Edited February 19, 2006 by fasstrack

[jazz4u]

Jsngry. I never heard the quote, but I can see the where Lee was coming from.