John Tapscott Posted February 5, 2006 Report Share Posted February 5, 2006 OK, John T. -- John L. stubbed his toe that time IMO, apparently provoked by the stage band movement, which certainly had its downside, socially and aesthetically (again IMO). But to describe Herman as a "mediocre eclectic" comes close to being just plain wrong. Anyway, I don't think that John L.'s moment of distracted testiness there (I think that's what it was) defines him at all. He's just not that kind of person or writer, and "The Freedom Principle" is not that kind of book. Let me add my final comment. I actually think "The Freedom Principle" is that kind of book. The comment about Herman is arguable. I would certainly agree with the "eclectic" part, but mediocre? Perhaps he was occasionally, but for the most part, Herman's Herds were pretty top-of-the heap as far as big bands, (esp. road bands) go, and on one occasion in the 70's Herman's band played the most exhilrating and memorable big band concert I have ever heard to this day. But don't just focus on the Herman comment. Look at what he says about Bill Evans. Look, my point is that there is an undertying theme of "testiness" towards earlier forms of jazz and jazz musicians in that book which I think detracts from his goal of opening listeners to giving freer froms of jazz a fair listen. I am not the only one to think this. Evonce noticed it too, and said so as much in his review. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evonce Posted February 5, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2006 "Modest good manners elevated to worldview" is I think how Litweiler summed up Evans. I admire JW's skill at turning a phrase, but I don't like the way he (inadvertently?) portrays some of these obvious giants as being misguided. I'm certainly not the only person to notice this - you can read reviews of that book on Amazon where people say the exact same thing. I should re-mention that I think FP is a great book and I do find the author entertaining to read, there and elsewhere. But he seems to single out certain people - like Scott LaFaro in some liner note I read - and just take an axe to all their accomplishments for no reason. (I wrote that little blurb over a year ago and I included it on the site on a whim. And then sparked the discussion. ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 5, 2006 Report Share Posted February 5, 2006 Contrary to the album title, NOT everybody digs Bill Evans, at least not unabashedly. I would be among those who have reservations. Always have, and probably always will be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted February 5, 2006 Report Share Posted February 5, 2006 (edited) just a bit more on Balliett, who has written some great profiles but has real limitations and problems - he called Miles Davis a "first rate second rate trumpet player," disliked Jaki Byard, and got caught up in his own descriptive prowess - I find some of his musical descriptions unbearable - on the other hand, his profile of Pee Wee Rusell is a work of art, and many of his interviews are indispensible - and the Max Roach comment on lack of swing shows a fundamental lack of understanding of a certain key jazz aesthetic - Edited February 5, 2006 by AllenLowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Dorward Posted February 6, 2006 Report Share Posted February 6, 2006 Actually I think Balliett's comment on Roach was that Roach has a lousy sound on the drums. I can look it up later. -- His comments on Miles Davis tended to resolve around accusing him of making music out of self-pity (the collabs with Gil Evans in particular). I must confess I have mixed feelings about Byard too, though this is in part just from seeing a couple of unfortunate concerts late in his life which were genuinely depressing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcello Posted February 6, 2006 Report Share Posted February 6, 2006 (edited) Nate, He says both: "Roach has never got a good drum sound. His tightly muffeled snare resembles a hatbox, and his tomtoms have no resonance." And: "Roach has what used to be called 'fast wrists'. and much of what he does is technically dazzling. But he dosn't swing. He leaves your feet flat on the ground, your head and hands still What a mystery!" pages 272-275 New York Notes Edited February 6, 2006 by marcello Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnagrandy Posted February 6, 2006 Report Share Posted February 6, 2006 Well I'm off to get my PhD in ethnomusicology focusing on black music in America in the 20th century. When I return in 8-10 years my first priority will be to try to read this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted February 6, 2006 Report Share Posted February 6, 2006 (edited) see you then Grandy... Nate, Jaki was drinking heavily in those late years, very depressed over his wife's death - listen to the earlier solo albums and it will change your life - and also be aware that Jaki was playing without key centers as early as the middle 1950s, according to his fellow Bostonian Charlie Banacos, but never got credit for it because he was out of NYC - at his peak he was incredible - check out, as well, the OJC stuff at Lennies on the Turnpike, with Joe Farrell - wow! Edited February 6, 2006 by AllenLowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzhound Posted February 6, 2006 Report Share Posted February 6, 2006 (edited) Like I said, mileages will vary... What I'd like to know is if anybody here will admit to liking the music of certain "hacks". I will! Some of my favorite music is by "hacks", and I have no problem admitting to their "hackdom", their lack of overall relevancy to the grand scheme of things, just as I have no problem admitting that I enjoy it anyway. Just because. Honesty and respect are two-way streets, it seems to me, and to defend something for being something that it is not is just as wrong as criticizing something for being something that it is not. The language used may often be a sticking point, but try to look at what is being said rather than how it's being said. Easier said than done, sometimes, but usually worth the effort over the long run. To get to the apples, sometimes you gotta work past the crust. Would that everybody knew how to make a tasty crust, but such is life. Again, just my opinion. huh? Edited February 6, 2006 by jazzhound Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted February 6, 2006 Report Share Posted February 6, 2006 This may have come up here before, but one of the funniest and most accurate parodies I've ever read is Joe Goldberg's of Whitney in a piece Goldberg wrote for The Jazz Review back '59 or '60, reprinted in the book "Jazz Panorama." The setup is that two previously unknown musicians (read Ornette and Don Cherry) have just cropped in NYC, trumpeter Ansel Jones and pianist Porter Smith. The Jones-Smith Duo, get it? "Much of Ansel's life in music," Goldberg writes,"is explained by his instrument, a strange, ungainly copper trumpet. All his life, Ansel had wanted to become a serious composer, and had saved his pennies so some day he might attend to Juilliard School of Music. The day after his application to Juilliard had been refused, Ansel walked calmly into the metal working shop at high school, carrying the pennies he had been saving. Without a word, he tossed them into one of the huge cauldrons there. By night he had melted them down and had forged from the molten copper a trumpet. "He and pianist Porter Smith form the entire group. Naturally, their exclusion of the conventional rhythm section raised several questions, and for the answer to those, we turned to Porter Smith, who can be more articulate about his music than can Ansel. 'We don't need no rhythm,' he said." There follows imaginary responses to the duo's music on the part on such critics as Ralph J. Gleason (it begins: "I like this group, and anybody who doesn't had just better not ever talk to me again, that's all"), Gene Lees ("I'm not as friendly with Ansel Jones as I am with Quincy and some of the other guys..."), Martin Williams ("It is impossible to write about the music of Ansel Jones without using the word 'artist'....), etc. Here is the Balliett parody in full: "Ansel Jones, a thin, diffident young man who resembles a twelve-stringed lute placed on its end at an angle of seventy-three degrees, is getting music from his self-smelted horn that may radically change the shape of jazz. In a typical solo, he will start with a sort of agonized laziness, as if he were awakening from a dream caused by eating too much welsh rarebit the night before, and then, in the third chorus, he will, in a series of short, splatting notes that give the effect of a catsup bottle hit once too often on its end, abruptly switch into a fast tempo that belies the furry bumbling that preceded it. All this time, his pianist, Porter Smith, lays down a firm, inky foundation that anticipates the leader's meanderings with the precision of a seeing eye dog weaving its way through a Coney Island beach crowd on the Fourth of July. In one composition, 'Duplicity,' the two men hit the same note simultaneously midway through the second bridge, and it had the shattering emotional impact of two old friends meeting by chance after years of aimless wandering." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indestructible! Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 Kofksy is SUCH a jackoff-- tho' of course there's some wheat there too given the subject-- it turned me waaaay the fuck off Marxism for years... & please don't blame Marx for Kofsky (not that you are but anyone), any more than we blame, i dunno... Pops... (or Louis Prima, hah) for Winston. xxc Hi Clem and Jim, I have to totally agree with these sentiments. Kofsky's book was the first book I think I ever encountered that made me think "Yeah, that's it" after one sentence, and then make me scream "this is such fuckin' bullshit" the next. What an infuriating read! Jim, you are dead on about Kofsky's NEED to put words in Coltrane's mouth during that interview. His pathetic attempts came across even more clearly when I actually listened to the interview (many years after reading it). How Trane put up with that shit, I'll never know. Maybe he really was a saint??? Clem, there's no way in hell I'll be blaming Marx for things that Kofsky said... Marx wouldn't have said some of that inane shit in a million years! Kofsky seemed like a tremendous piece of work... Sorry, had to rant! Cheers, Shane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnagrandy Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 & hey, grandy, don't pat yrself on the back too hard: ANYONE can go to school for x years. don't mean a thing but it COULD if you do it right (so far i'm not optimistic, tho' i do think yr lopsided-- to say the least-- fervor is amusing). Well at least I know a bit about jazz musicians that are actually alive, as opposed to dead, which is all you guys seem to know anything about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 grandy - you got a problem with dead musicians? Than I promise I will come back to haunt you - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnagrandy Posted February 9, 2006 Report Share Posted February 9, 2006 grandy - you got a problem with dead musicians? Than I promise I will come back to haunt you - I have a problem with doofuses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted February 9, 2006 Report Share Posted February 9, 2006 please, grandy, there's really no place on Organissimo for someone who hates the handicapped - especially when they're named after that guy who was on the Love Boat - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnagrandy Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 Doofuses as in "Allen Lowe", not as in the handicapped. You watch Love Boat reruns every night. You voted for Gopher for Senator. You love the guy. Admit it. Plus you're the only hated jazz musician that no one ever heard of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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