Kenny Dorham "private" dates

[Big Beat Steve]

Thanks for your comments. I was just puzzled that the fact that there are two tapes in circulation where one tape has additional tracks (beyond the idential tracks on both tapes) would necessarily mean that there were two sets played. So if I got you right you presume that the additional tracks that are one tape only come from a second set that was payed?

[Dan Gould]

Thanks for the insight David, my copy of the recording that does circulate came from the opener of this thread, MartyJazz. He had dozens of reels that I digitized for him - this must have been nearly 20 years ago.

[Big Beat Steve]

1 hour ago, Big Beat Steve said:

... So if I got you right you presume that the additional tracks that are one tape only come from a second set that was payed?

Typo correction:
... that the additional tracks that are on one tape only come from a second set that was played

[Kevin Bresnahan]

2 hours ago, Dan Gould said:

Thanks for the insight David, my copy of the recording that does circulate came from the opener of this thread, MartyJazz. He had dozens of reels that I digitized for him - this must have been nearly 20 years ago.

MartyJazz hasn't posted since 2018. Does anyone know if he's still around?

[bertrand]

On 3/8/2025 at 11:45 AM, david weiss said:

I'm not saying they played the same tunes on the 2nd set just that there were probably 2 sets played and perhaps only one of them circulated (or the music was recorded on 2 reels of tape and only one circulated). I imagine when this music and the Freddie Hubbard albums are released, there will be a story in the booklet about the guy who organized these gigs and recorded the music. This is a case where we know the origins of these recordings as they have been with the guy who recorded them from day one and he has been in possession of them the whole time. These tapes were not widely circulated but I know the musicians had copies at least. I first heard the Freddie Hubbard tape at Freddie Hubbard's house years ago. I also know a few of them were shopped years ago so it's possible someone made copies. I also got a cassette of part of the Kenny Dorham gig years ago as I remember transcribing KD's solos on Blue Bossa and Bag's Groove. As for this KD recording. I can't quite figure out the original order but there seems to be two sets as there are two different announcements at the beginning of sets and another announcement bringing Joe Lee Wilson to the stage. All the instrumental tracks seem to be on this release as with the Freddie Hubbard. Perhaps the liner notes will clear some things up. I'm still curious how they decided it was Dennis Charles on drums when the announcer clearly says Huss Charles.

I guess we will find out on record store day. If Zev has an event at Joe's Record Paradise, I will try to go and ask what's up.

Trumpeter Fabien Mary did a great tribute to KD tonight at Sunside in Paris.

Edited March 11 by bertrand

[bertrand]

On 2/17/2025 at 11:42 AM, clifford_thornton said:

Credited as Frank with Archie Shepp, yeah. 

Very interesting theory about the cabaret card, and certainly possible given Denis’ proclivities.

I see both Dennis (sic) Charles and Frank Charles playing percussion on a couple of 1962 RCA Sonny Rollins dates, the ones for the What's New record. Were the brothers on the scene that early?

[Niko]

Denis played with Cecil Taylor since the mid-fifties... And since he was the younger brother, using Frank's drum set...

[bertrand]

Right, Denis was out there way before 1962. So the question is when did Frank/Huss start becoming active? A few weeks ago we were thinking late 60s, but now he goes back to 1962.

[Niko]

did you see my first post of February 17? Frank was the one who first owned a trap set and until 1957 Denis always practiced on Frank's set... Denis started playing with Cecil Taylor in 1954 (according to wiki) so Frank had a set at least from, say, 1953 onwards... and the fact that he ended up recording as a percussionist with Ed Blackwell, Sonny Rollins and others suggests to me that he was possibly sufficiently talented as a drumming musician to show up playing  with Kenny Dorham on a local live gig nobody ever expected to appear as an album...

[clifford_thornton]

I'm looking forward to hearing the recordings and will be interested to see if it's actually Frank/Huss rather than Denis.

[bertrand]

Unless Resonance gives an unimpeachable explanation as to why it is Denis and not Huss despite the announcement, I will assume it is Huss.

[bertrand]

Heard a track from this last night - the drumming was rather pedestrian.

[Dan Gould]

I am hoping for reports on this one especially sound compared to original tape that circulated among those in the know or with connections or, I imagine at some point, an internet connection and Bit-Torrent software.

[clifford_thornton]

okay, I guess the CD is coming out this week so I'll be able to hear it soon. Denis was never someone I'd call pedestrian, which leads me to believe he may not be the drummer.

[bertrand]

I got the CD.

First, my apologies to the drummer. His playing is not at all pedestrian. The drumming sounded intrusive on the radio, but not on the CD. Not sure why.

As for who the drummer is...

The announcement which I have heard and definitely says Huss Charles is not included on the CD. It is 74 minutes so space was not an issue.

There is no mention of how it was decided Denis was the drummer and not Huss but the possibility that it was Huss is not mentioned at all. Bernard Drayton does suggest that Denis was one of KD's guys but what does that mean? Did they gig together a lot? How much gigging did KD do at that time? He had health issues and was barely recording. Finding proof of this claim would involve a deep dive to find gig listings. Very labor intensive. Using RIPM Jazz would help, I think, but I have yet to see it in action.

 

[Dan Gould]

How is the music/sound, @bertrand ?

[Niko]

Thanks! Even if the gig listing contained the name of a drummer, I would give more credence to what is being said on stage during the concert...  Dorham worked with  Roger Blank and Huss Charles... So there's a good chance he worked with Denis Charles as well.... But that doesn't mean anything... I am pretty confident that if there been a striking argument justifying the transition from Huss to Denis, the Jazz Detective would have shared it with us... 

Most likely, they didn't realize Huss Charles was an actual drummer and just asked themselves for a plausible name to fill into "... Charles" in such a way that it might even help sales.

This is the usual crap we've come to expect from them, who needs a 20 page booklet if the most basic things (like the list of participating musicians) are lacking.

[bertrand]

I agree that they probably settled on Denis as he was a 'Charles' people would have heard of. Not sure how much it would have helped sales. Adding a comment with no proof that Denis and KD were tight seems like a red herring.

In the past, Resonance booklets made a big production about how all the estates were involved and gave their blessing. The Denis Charles estate is not mentioned as far as I can tell.

I agree the booklets are pure padding. The notes here contain a doozy: they claim the Olatunji gig was Coltrane's last. The last was Left Bank 5/7/67. Zev must know about it since he has been deeply immersed in Left Bank. I am sure he would tell you it was not recorded, an obviously unverifiable fact.

 

[Rooster_Ties]

6 hours ago, Dan Gould said:

How is the music/sound, @bertrand ?

One track is on streaming services (I noticed it on Pandora yesterday)…

I sure wish it’d been another sax player than Sonny Red.

 

[JSngry]

6 hours ago, Niko said:

Thanks! Even if the gig listing contained the name of a drummer, I would give more credence to what is being said on stage during the concert...  Dorham worked with  Roger Blank and Huss Charles... So there's a good chance he worked with Denis Charles as well.... But that doesn't mean anything... I am pretty confident that if there been a striking argument justifying the transition from Huss to Denis, the Jazz Detective would have shared it with us... 

Most likely, they didn't realize Huss Charles was an actual drummer and just asked themselves for a plausible name to fill into "... Charles" in such a way that it might even help sales.

This is the usual crap we've come to expect from them, who needs a 20 page booklet if the most basic things (like the list of participating musicians) are lacking.

Hello!

Happy to get the music, but what good is documentation that isn't really documentation?

[bertrand]

Good point. The Sonny Stitt booklet that did not mention the second sax was a farce. Wasted paper.

For the record, I LOVE Sonny Red.

[Peter Friedman]

58 minutes ago, bertrand said:

Good point. The Sonny Stitt booklet that did not mention the second sax was a farce. Wasted paper.

For the record, I LOVE Sonny Red.

I too am a big Sonny Red fan.

[andybleaden]

This is helpful intel - so I am diving in and ordering this and the Freddie Hubbard set AND to cap it The Three Sounds live recordings as well -- and finally got the Joe Henderson and McCoy Tyner  live set  

 

I figured I rarely see live music and never saw these guys at the time (pre birth ) so will treat myself over the next 3-5 months