Guest Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 Are there any musicians by practice/lawyers by trade on this board? I've got a question that I'll float if so, but if not, i know the direction the discussion will take and it's a tired discussion amongst musicians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free For All Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV, but I am a musician and I'm curious as to what your question is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 I've got a bass player friend who's a lawyer, but if you ask him a legal question, he's probably going to want to charge you for the answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 It's more of an academic curiousity. I've been arguing about legality of various things with musicians and would love to have someone who knew what they were talking about weigh in. Specifically, I have had a theory that the existance of the Berklee Real Book isn't in itself illegal. The production and sale of it is, but it get's passed around a lot on .pdf now and I know someone who had an unbound hardcopy that he loans out to someone who wants to copy and bind. Obviously the mythical creators of the Real Book don't have protected rights to it, so you're not stealing from them, but is it a violation of something else? It's really just a curiousity. The reason I didn't just post the question is because the non-legal discussion about how it is evil and bad for jazz is pretty tired and I don't think anything else can really be said about it. I agree that it is and am not an advocate for it, but it's like a lot of controversal things. It exists and people use it. I know that the Chuck Sher books are also floating around on .pdf and I think that is a very different issue. I have a very noble friend who has the CD, but bought the books so that he could use it without going to hell. (not his words) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 (edited) How did the Real Books get to be so ubiquitous?? (Hope this isn't too much of a thread derail.) Edited January 30, 2006 by Rooster_Ties Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 The Real Book is technically a violation of copyright of each song's composer(s)/publisher, so copying it is that kind of violation, not a violation against the Real Book itself. But dude, fake books have been around damn near forever. I've got one or two that are at least as old as I am, or close to it, and I'm 50. And I've seen them older! They're for "professional use only", and should be treated accordingly. They're not for "general use", if you know what I mean. If Little Billy wants to learn the head to "Four" because his band director thinks he should, then Little Billy should get a legit sheet music version from a legit dealer. If Wallopin' William needs to check the changes to "Here's That Rainy Day" becasue he's on a gig and the leader calls it and nobody in the rhythm section really knows it, then he should use the Real Book (or something similar) rather than hold up the gig trying to find a music store that's open. Shades of grey here, plenty of them, some more obvious than others, but all colored by intent, context, situation, and overall tendencies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 (edited) And while we're at it, is there any copyright violation if someone got a friend of theirs to do an arrangement of a tune neither one owns the rights to (let's say a couple Radiohead tunes), in order to have them played by some other group - heck, how about a church handbell choir?? Let's say the arrangements are fully scored, but are never sold. Is there any problem with this?? Would it be any different if the friend was paid to do the arrangements?? Purely hypothetical example, of course. I mean, who would ever be crazy enough to try to do Radiohead on handbells?? Edited January 30, 2006 by Rooster_Ties Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 If I remember correctly (and that's a big if, considering...), we were taught in arranging class that you should always obtain written permission before arranging somebody else's tune. But nobody did, and nobody does, and nobody bitches. But if you want to have your ass covered "just in case"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 (edited) So, let me see if I've got this... As I understand it -- a band or individual can legally play anything they want to, written by anybody else -- so as long as it isn't recorded, sold, or broadcast. (And "theoretically" the ASCAP/BMI fees that live music venues have to pay cover this - which I know is a whole 'nother can of worms.) But if you actually write down the arrangement on paper (in order to play it) - there's a legal problem with that? Or maybe I'm reading too much into that "should always obtain written permission" that you said, Sangry. Edited January 31, 2006 by Rooster_Ties Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 I think there is an interesting discussion in there, wrapped in a tired (but no less valid one). In reverse order: The Real Book is not a good source. Using charts as a crutch is not good musicianship and there is a better (but much more time consuming) way to internalize standards. But, with respect to "professional use only" the reality of it is, you get called to play a gig with people you don't know or normally play with, you ask "what are we going to play" and they say "we'll just play outta the book". You want the gig, you take it. You know what book they're talking about. If you really know all those songs or really are at the top of your game to a point where you can play any tune that you've ever heard, changes be damned, then you're a top cat and you probably wouldn't have taken that gig. Many heavy cats will say "if you can't do that, you shouldn't be out playing", but there are people (present company included) who believe that they need to play to get better and therefore take those gigs when it makes sense. Even (and especially) if I have transcribed "Up Jumped Spring" from Freddie Hubbard, which I have, I need to know that the real book has major chords where there should be minor chords, so that when we sound like ass on the stand, I can adjust, or better yet, talk to them ahead of time or avoid playing the 3rds of those chords until I figure out what they're going to do. I think and hope that probably the kids coming up through school now are not feeling the need to use that book. There are too many other good ones and I think that culturally the Berklee Book will become obsolute in the next decade. FINALLY! But, it still shows up a lot now in my world. With respect to legality, it's kind of academic, but it gets into things that I think will impact us as musicians. I'm in 2 regular groups and we've all agreed to use the cheap version of Finale, which we've all bought licenses for. When we arrange something or move something to a different key, or reharmonize something or whatever, we create a chart and mail it to the others, transposed for their instruments. Everyone can check it out before we get together, suggest changes, woodshed it a little or whatever. When I play with a singer and hire a band, I create charts in his or her key if they haven't done it themselves so that I'm not asking the band to transpose on the fly or asking a horn player to site read concert. Is this a copywrite violation? Not one that I'm likley to get prosocuted for, but keeping the discussion academic, is it? Maybe. Let's say the Berklee Book was transcriptions by Berklee students, as one version of the story goes and they shared them with each other the way that all college students share lecture notes and research with each other. Was that a copywrite violation? Maybe, I honestly don't know. I realize that when the Real Book started getting bound and sold under the counter at music stores or out of the trunks of cars, it became black and white. But I don't know anyone who pays for the Real Book anymore, they get passed around pretty freely at this point. So is the mear existance of the Real Book a crime? I had convinced myself that it was not, but actually I think I've talked myself out of that now. Granted, it's an ethics violation against those composers, some of whom are still alive and could really use the money and I care about that. Granted it's not good musicianship and I really care about that too. I was just curious about the nuts and bolts of law in this area. I'm kind of a geek that way. In another thread, we've been talking about the law as it pertains to things like podcasts and how it's unclear and evolving. I think as more of us record ourselves and release our own records, own websites where we promote ourselves, etc. we're going to either need to have a legal advisor, which no one will be able to afford to do or we'll need to start understanding this stuff. Just my thoughts. I'd love to know what others think or may have learned. If there is a laywer member who has some gratis opinions to share, I think it would be interesting. I started this because I'm always getting legal opinions from musicians, which is kind of like getting medical advice from electricians. ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 If there is a laywer member who has some gratis opinions to share... And if they don't, ask them if they've got any free downloaded music or burned CDRs of in-print material. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 So, let me see if I've got this... As I understand it -- a band or individual can legally play anything they want to, written by anybody else -- so as long as it isn't recorded, sold, or broadcast. (And "theoretically" the ASCAP/BMI fees that live music venues have to pay cover this - which I know is a whole 'nother can of worms.) But if you actually write down the arrangement on paper (in order to play it) - there's a legal problem with that? Or maybe I'm reading to much into that "should always obtain written permission" that you said, Sangry. You are. If there is in fact any real law about obtaining written permission prior to arranging a tune, it's not enforced on a "for kicks" level, and it's certainly not something that the Publishing Police are going to come out of the woodwork to bust you for. I think it's more relevant in the commercial arena. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DukeCity Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 I'm not sure about having to get pre-permission to do an arrangement, but I did hear a story about the basketball pep band at the college where I teach. Several years ago a student did an arrangement of "Chameleon". Wouldn't have been much of a problem, except there was a televised game, several seconds of the arrangement were heard over the airwaves (cable lines?), and someone on the Hancock team was listening. A fine of about $500 was levied, and the loser band director (no longer here) actually made the student pay the fine! Subsequently, the S.O.P. is for the director to get some sort of liscencing from Harry Fox for new arrangements of tunes. My guess is that the act of writing an arrangment is not a problem, but the minute you actually do anything with the arrangment (perform it publicly, sell it, record it etc.) the Man will start to take notice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 (edited) By the way, as you may have guessed - my query was mostly just academic. I certainly wasn't worried about my hypothetical handbell-choir arrangements of Radiohead tunes, not in any real sense. I mean, said handbell-choir is a church-affiliated group, and the tunes in question wouldn't even be performed in any kind of commercial context. Never the less, this is a facinating discussion. Edited January 31, 2006 by Rooster_Ties Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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