AllenLowe Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 not nearly as distracting as having to listen to Phoenix singing for two+ hours - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDK Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 I can't believe they couldn't afford to do the licensing - and I've heard his singing, which I find unlistenable, though I have not seen the movie yet. Either way it was a major mistake, as there is really no replacing the original, especially if you want to have the performance impact. And, honestly, I'm doubtful they could have forced him to do the singing. Sorry, I still see this as a vanity issue - trust me, I know the type - I don't agree that it had anything to do with licensing and/or money either - I think it was a deliberate choice on the part of the director not to dub in Cash's vocals. I find such stuff incredibly distracting (though I'll admit it was done very well in Ray, when it was actually done that way in Ray). By your logic, Allen, I don't want anybody up on stage not exactly looking like Cash either. I wouldn't have made the movie unless I could get Johnny Cash to play all different ages of himself since there's no way Phoenix could have stood in for him. Also, it sounds like you haven't seen the flick yet. Please don't base Phoenix's singing on any soundtrack CDs you might have heard. I agree 100% that he's no Cash and they never should have released a CD of his vocals - who would even buy such a thing when real Johnny Cash CDs are available? I think Phoenix's vocals work well in the context of the movie, but there's no reason to hear him aping Cash on the radio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stereojack Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 I agree 100% that he's no Cash and they never should have released a CD of his vocals - who would even buy such a thing when real Johnny Cash CDs are available? I think Phoenix's vocals work well in the context of the movie, but there's no reason to hear him aping Cash on the radio. I completely agree, but Diana Ross's soundtrack album to "Lady Sings the Blues" was a big seller. There's money to be made off of uninformed moviegoers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 (edited) I can't believe they couldn't afford to do the licensing - and I've heard his singing, which I find unlistenable, though I have not seen the movie yet. Either way it was a major mistake, as there is really no replacing the original, especially if you want to have the performance impact. And, honestly, I'm doubtful they could have forced him to do the singing. Sorry, I still see this as a vanity issue - trust me, I know the type - Hi Allen, They probably could have afforded afford to do the licensing, but they probably chose not to, and to use the money on something else. Sony Columbia probably asked a very high fee for teh mechanicals. But anyway, Joaquin Phoenix interviewed: http://movies.about.com/od/walktheline/a/walkline111505.htm And here's the director, James Mangold, on his reason why he had Phoenix and Witherspoon sing: http://suicidegirls.com/words/James+Mangol...+Walk+the+Line/ Mangold: I can’t speak about Ray, I don’t know about their process. But Johnny Cash is one of the great storytellers of all time and so is June Carter, meaning their relationship with the audience was probably a little different than people like Ray Charles. It wasn’t about the sonic perfection of their voices. It was about their human connection with the audience. They could stop the song in the middle and tell you a story. They could laugh in the middle of their song. There was a million ways that Johnny and June made you feel like you were at home with them. The idea of turning Joaquin and Reese into Natalie Wood in West Side Story by pressing play on a tape recorder and having someone else’s voice come out of their mouth would have contradicted everything Johnny stood for. As Johnny would attest to, he would easily scrap a record he had made where he hit every note perfectly if he thought there was a take where he hit the emotions perfectly even if he was off pitch. So his entire aesthetic was not about being perfect as a musician, it was about being connected. As a director, I felt that my best connectors are my actors. So to deny them the ability to do that with an audience seems to me that I would be denying them something. Also I really felt there was something they gained from them becoming musicians that would affect the way they performed in other scenes where they weren’t singing. If you’re an actor and every time a musical moment is happening someone takes your voice away from you and plays a record it seems to me that you’re robbing the actor of a kind of confidence they need to really fully become this person Edited January 30, 2006 by Adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 yikes - not a smart attitude from the director - as the movie Ray proved, it's just not true - unless you are Doris Day playing Ruth Etting in Love Me or Leave Me, it's probably a better idea to use the original. Unless, of course, you have something to bring to the vocals, something that captures the spirit. From what I've heard of Phoenix, it's a bit of a botch, but I'll reserve final judgement until I see him in the context of the movie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 To use Cash's voice would require licensing both the mechanical rights from Sony (the actual recordings) in addition to the synch rights (the publishing, or the written song). To have Phoenix sing... no mechanical license. You don't understand what "mechanical rights" are. They have to do with the publishing of the song and the use of the music and words, not the recording. They obviously paid the mechanicals if the song is in the movie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 (edited) To use Cash's voice would require licensing both the mechanical rights from Sony (the actual recordings) in addition to the synch rights (the publishing, or the written song). To have Phoenix sing... no mechanical license. You don't understand what "mechanical rights" are. They have to do with the publishing of the song and the use of the music and words, not the recording. They obviously paid the mechanicals if the song is in the movie. My error, yes. From ASCAP: Mechanical Rights A mechanical right is the right to record and distribute (without visual images) a song on a phonorecord for private use. Mechanical rights or a mechanical license must be obtained in order to lawfully make and distribute records, CD's and tapes. Synchronization or "Synch" Rights A synchronization or "synch" right involves the use of a recording of musical work in audio-visual form: for example as part of a motion picture, television program, commercial announcement, music video or other videotape. Often, the music is "synchronized" or recorded in timed relation with the visual images. Synchronization rights are licensed by the music publisher to the producer of the movie or program. My use of "synch" rights was correct; my use of "mechanical" was wrong. I should have said "Master use license." From the BMI site: http://www.bmi.com/licensing/broadcaster/sync.asp In addition to the synchronization license obtained from Rhyme Music, the movie studio may also need to obtain a master use license from Trevor's record company if they want to use his recording of "Fictional Lives." This is because a particular recording of a song has a separate copyright from the underlying musical composition, and this sound recording copyright is generally held by the record company. For example, when movie producers used original recordings in The Big Chill, they had to obtain master use licenses from the various record companies, in addition to the synchronization licenses from the music publishers, in order to use the original recordings of such hits from the 60's as "I Heard It Through The Grapevine" performed by Marvin Gaye, "Natural Woman" performed by Aretha Franklin and the Rolling Stones' "You Can't Always Get What You Want." The BMI site lays out the distinctions pretty well: http://www.bmi.com/licensing/broadcaster/faq.asp And from this I understand that they did obtain the mechanical license as well, not because the song is in the film, but because there is a soundtrack CD that includes the songs as performed in the film. Edited January 31, 2006 by Adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 I agree 100% that he's no Cash and they never should have released a CD of his vocals - who would even buy such a thing when real Johnny Cash CDs are available? I think Phoenix's vocals work well in the context of the movie, but there's no reason to hear him aping Cash on the radio. I completely agree, but Diana Ross's soundtrack album to "Lady Sings the Blues" was a big seller. There's money to be made off of uninformed moviegoers. Jack, do you remember the Lennie Tristano letter to down beat (several years prior to "Lady Sings the Blues") where he proclaimed Diana Ross "the best jazz singer since Billie Holiday"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 To use Cash's voice would require licensing both the mechanical rights from Sony (the actual recordings) in addition to the synch rights (the publishing, or the written song). To have Phoenix sing... no mechanical license. You don't understand what "mechanical rights" are. They have to do with the publishing of the song and the use of the music and words, not the recording. They obviously paid the mechanicals if the song is in the movie. Welcome back Chuck!! This place ain't done been the same without ya. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 To use Cash's voice would require licensing both the mechanical rights from Sony (the actual recordings) in addition to the synch rights (the publishing, or the written song). To have Phoenix sing... no mechanical license. You don't understand what "mechanical rights" are. They have to do with the publishing of the song and the use of the music and words, not the recording. They obviously paid the mechanicals if the song is in the movie. Welcome back Chuck!! This place ain't done been the same without ya. Notice I only posted about "facts". Don't feel any comfort talking about ethics here at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stereojack Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 I completely agree, but Diana Ross's soundtrack album to "Lady Sings the Blues" was a big seller. There's money to be made off of uninformed moviegoers. Jack, do you remember the Lennie Tristano letter to down beat (several years prior to "Lady Sings the Blues") where he proclaimed Diana Ross "the best jazz singer since Billie Holiday"? I do - it raised my eyebrows then, but today there are Tristanoites who echo Lennie's "approval". I kid you not! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 well, Tristano was the same guy who described Sonny Rollins' playing as "all emotion, no feeling." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soulstation1 Posted February 20, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 i saw the movie on friday pretty good movie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 I liked the movie. I thought everyone did a good job. I can't really find any fault with it, but couldn't help but feel that I liked it better last year when it was called "Ray". Anyone want to bet that next year is "Orbison". Now that they've got a formula that works at the box office, I think we can expect them to start the assembly line a crankin'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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