What is that beat?

[Hank]

I have two related questions, since I'm putting together a kind of playlist: What is that beat called that is driven by what sounds like a rimshot, ala Milestones, Jeannine, Alamode? Are there other examples of it that you can think of?

Thanks

Edited January 22, 2006 by Hank

[JSngry]

The Philly Joe.

[Hank]

The Philly Joe.

Makes sense. Did he originate it with Milestones?

[CJ Shearn]

didn't Sam Woodyard originate the rimshot groove thing in Duke's band? Otherwise I could see the rimshot on 4 thing being a Philly Joe innovation

[Hank]

didn't Sam Woodyard originate the rimshot groove thing in Duke's band?

Yeah, that sounds like a possibility. I'm gonna have to search around for that. Any examples come to mind?

[JSngry]

The rimshot itself is as old as the trap set. Probably even older? Lots of variants on how much snare is included, though.

Woodyard's rim shots were mostly on 2 & 4 (and in anybody else's hands, especially Bobby Durham's, it bugs the piss out of me like few things do...). Philly took it down to just the 4, and later opened it up to just the 4 on every other bar, which is the beat in question.

Did he invent it? I can't say with any certainty. But he certainly popularized it. All the old cats I've known refer to it as "the Philly Joe beat".

[Rosco]

Yup, I've always referred to it as the 'Philly Joe'. Drummers usually know what I mean.

[marcello]

I couldn't resist posting this from Doug Ramsey's: Rifftides:

Comment: Philly Joe

The Voice of America’s John Birchard writes:

Your Philly Joe material reminded me of an evening back in the early 60s, a Monday Night at Birdland.

Joe had brought a quintet into the club. Following the obligatory oratory by PeeWee Marquette, Jones—very clean in a hip three-piece Ivy League suit—slid behind the drums and counted off the first tune, one of those up-tempo bop jobs that discouraged amateurs from even thinking of sitting in.

There's Philly Joe, with one stick tucked under his arm, adjusting the angle of the cymbals and tightening the head of the snare with his free hand while never missing an accent on the complex chart with his other extremities—and smiling a satisfied smile that said, (to me, at least) "I got this thing covered, baby, stand back!" And, at the exact moment the band reached the end of the head and arrived at bar one of the first solo, Philly Joe finished his fine-tuning, put the second stick in hand and gave his sideman a thunderous press roll as a launch pad. I couldn't help but laugh out loud at a terrific piece of show biz.

Edited January 22, 2006 by marcello

[Spontooneous]

Wasn't it adapted for drums from a lick Ray Crawford played on guitar with Ahmad Jamal? Don't have time to look this up right now, but I think that's mentioned in the Miles/Troupe alleged autobiography. Or maybe it's Philly Joe's interview in Arthur Taylor's book.

[CJ Shearn]

Take the A Train is the one example of the Woodyard I thought of. And a movement from the Newport Festival Suite. Listening to "Milestones"now, so far at the beginning it sounds like the rimshot on 4 is occuring on every measure. Once Cannon reaches the bridge in his first chorus it changes up a little. Am I right here?