Free For All Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 (edited) The verse is an overlooked aspect of the jazz standard IMHO. Remember when Dick Oatts and Gary Dial did a recording featuring rarely-played verses to standard tunes? There are verses to familiar tunes like All The Things You Are, and of course the great verse that precedes Stardust. I haven't found a definitive source to list these hidden treasures, so I thought this would be a good place to start; maybe folks could list some of their favorites and maybe some of which we might not have been aware. Here's the question that motivated me to start this thread: Is anyone aware of there being a verse to the Johnny Mandel tune Emily? I haven't been able to find out. If so, can you recommend a recording I could check out? Thank you in advance. Edited January 20, 2006 by Free For All Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe G Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 Silly question perhaps, but why is it called a "verse" when it functions as an introduction? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free For All Posted January 20, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 I'm not sure what the answer to that is. Where the hell is Mike Fitzgerald? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GA Russell Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 Is anyone aware of there being a verse to the Johnny Mandel tune Emily? I haven't been able to find out. If so, can you recommend a recording I could check out? Thank you in advance. It's been years since I've heard it, but I have a recording of Sue Raney singing Emily. I believe that the album is called Sue Raney Sings Johnny Mandel or something similar. As I recall it was on the Discovery label. Sorry I can't be of more definitive help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free For All Posted January 20, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 Thanks GA- I do have several recordings of the tune, I'm just curious if anyone has heard one with what might be a verse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DukeCity Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 I don't know about the origin of the terms "verse" and "refrain" for popular songs, but I've often thought that in many instances the verse acts almost like recitative in opera, coming before the aria. The verses tend to be rather wordy, not very interesting harmonically, but serve to simply set the mood for the refrain. There are certainly some verses that are quite beautiful (Stardust, Lush Life), and that's why they get performed more often. So I guess those exceptions prove the rule. As for Emily, I haven't seen any evidence of a pre-refrain verse. A quick google search (are you listening, G.W.?) showed a Barbra Streisand record called "The Movie Album", and the notes mention that she asked Johnny Mandel to "write another verse" for her, which I assume means another stanza of lyrics for the refrain. Even though I think Johnny Mercer wrote the original lyric. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalo Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 DukeCity has it just about right. The verse is very like recitative. In fact, it serves as a transition between the dialogue interludes of a musical comedy and the full-blown songs, aka the "refrain" or "chorus" that are the meat of the song. Watch any Astaire/Rogers musical and you'll see how this works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 my favorite is the verse to Tea For Two - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fer Urbina Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 One of my favourites is the verse to Stardust - but as in the livelier, instrumental version of c. 1929 (don't have more details at hand - I think Carmichael himself plays in it). The one I dislike the most is the verse to The Man I Love. Bad (as in bad). F Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe G Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 DukeCity has it just about right. The verse is very like recitative. In fact, it serves as a transition between the dialogue interludes of a musical comedy and the full-blown songs, aka the "refrain" or "chorus" that are the meat of the song. Watch any Astaire/Rogers musical and you'll see how this works. Ya learn something new everyday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 (edited) interesting thing about the verse and the melody to Stardust - as someone else once pointed out, both sound very much like something that might have been improvised by Bix Beiderbecke, who was, indeed, a very great personal influence on Carmichael at this time - Edited January 20, 2006 by AllenLowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalo Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 Didn't Sinatra once record the verse of "Stardust" all by itself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fasstrack Posted January 28, 2006 Report Share Posted January 28, 2006 There are certain tunes which would be almost criminal to do without the verse. "Spring can Really Hang You up the Most" comes to mind. The verse is such a strong setup for the story and the lyric, melody and changes are so perfect and perfectly interdependent that I've almost never heard it done without the verse (the one exception was Barbra Streisand on the Tonight Show, early 60s. But they were dealing with tight time restraints. On the other hand "My Foolish Heart" has a beautiful 8 bar verse that's practically never done. Tony Bennett did it with Bill Evans on their first collaboration. I think "Young and Foolish" gets short shrifted too, speaking of titles with 'foolish' in them (not to mention foolish acts). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fasstrack Posted January 28, 2006 Report Share Posted January 28, 2006 interesting thing about the verse and the melody to Stardust - as someone else once pointed out, both sound very much like something that might have been improvised by Bix Beiderbecke, who was, indeed, a very great personal influence on Carmichael at this time - Did y'all hear Benny Golson's story about that tune? Probably, but it's pretty funny: He says so many times a melody came to him in a dream or while half asleep and he would say "That's good, I gotta write that down in the morning". Of course he would never remember it and it would be lost in the ether. So one day a melody came to him and he said "this time I'm writing it down. Now". He got up and went to his studio, jotted the tune down and went back to bed. Next morning he wakes up and goes to check it out. He had written down the verse to "Stardust"...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted January 28, 2006 Report Share Posted January 28, 2006 I've got about 20 versions of "Emily"... Joe Beck / Red Mitchell Joe Beck Tony Bennett John Campbell Paul Desmond Bill Evans Irene Kral Lou Levy Mundell Lowe / Lloyd Wells Warne Marsh Mary Osborne Art Pepper Bill Perkins Oscar Peterson Oscar Peterson / Marian McPartland Zoot Sims Martin Taylor Cal Tjader Stanley Turrentine I just listened to a bunch of them...and so far, no verse anywhere (although a few featured nice introductions). When I think of verses, I automatically think of Ella first- especially the "Songbook" albums. A treasure trove for anybody looking for verses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted January 28, 2006 Report Share Posted January 28, 2006 I don't know about the origin of the terms "verse" and "refrain" for popular songs, but I've often thought that in many instances the verse acts almost like recitative in opera, coming before the aria. The verses tend to be rather wordy, not very interesting harmonically, but serve to simply set the mood for the refrain. There are certainly some verses that are quite beautiful (Stardust, Lush Life), and that's why they get performed more often. So I guess those exceptions prove the rule. As for Emily, I haven't seen any evidence of a pre-refrain verse. A quick google search (are you listening, G.W.?) showed a Barbra Streisand record called "The Movie Album", and the notes mention that she asked Johnny Mandel to "write another verse" for her, which I assume means another stanza of lyrics for the refrain. Even though I think Johnny Mercer wrote the original lyric. YES YES YES! REFRAIN! That's the frickin' word I've been racking my brain over for the last two weeks! It's not called a verse, it's called a refrain! As someone who did his fair share of musicals in high school and college (ok, don't start), as Kalo explained, they are a writing tool to get from the spoken dialogue into the song and are not necessarily a part of the song itself. They are almost part of the dialogue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free For All Posted January 28, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2006 (edited) I've heard both terms "refrain" and "verse" used (and I've always used the term "verse") but "refrain" is probably less confusing and more accurate. Edited January 28, 2006 by Free For All Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DukeCity Posted January 28, 2006 Report Share Posted January 28, 2006 The way I have it organized in my little pea brain, when we're talking about an older pop song like Stardust, the first part is the verse, and the main part that one usually blows over is the refrain (the refrain consists of one or more 'choruses'). In more contemorary pop songs there is more of a scheme like: verse verse chorus verse chorus hook/chorus For example, the Bachman, Turner Overdrive classic "Takin' Care of Business" The verse is: They get up every morning from the alarm clock's warning Take the eight-fifteen into the city There's a whistle up above and people push and people shove And all the girls, who try to look pretty And if your train's on time you can get to work by nine And start your slaving job to get your pay If you ever get annoyed look at me I'm self-employed I love to work at nothing all day And the chorus (or possibly refrain) is: And I've been takin' care of business everyday Takin' care of business every way I've been takin' care of business it's all mine Takin' care of business and working overtime Workout But then, when you open it up for blowing on the wedding band gig, what part do you blow over? It's all so confusing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Hawkins Posted January 29, 2006 Report Share Posted January 29, 2006 Over the Rainbow has a decent verse IMHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted January 29, 2006 Report Share Posted January 29, 2006 For example, the Bachman, Turner Overdrive classic "Takin' Care of Business" The verse is: They get up every morning from the alarm clock's warning Take the eight-fifteen into the city There's a whistle up above and people push and people shove And all the girls, who try to look pretty And if your train's on time you can get to work by nine And start your slaving job to get your pay If you ever get annoyed look at me I'm self-employed I love to work at nothing all day And the chorus (or possibly refrain) is: And I've been takin' care of business everyday Takin' care of business every way I've been takin' care of business it's all mine Takin' care of business and working overtime Workout But then, when you open it up for blowing on the wedding band gig, what part do you blow over? The cash bar? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalo Posted January 29, 2006 Report Share Posted January 29, 2006 The way I have it organized in my little pea brain, when we're talking about an older pop song like Stardust, the first part is the verse, and the main part that one usually blows over is the refrain (the refrain consists of one or more 'choruses'). That's pretty much the way I had it figured as well. The "verse" is that talky, less melodic bridge between speech and song, the "refrain" is what we think of as the song itself. Of course, we haven't talked about the "bridge" or "release" yet... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceH Posted January 29, 2006 Report Share Posted January 29, 2006 Silly question perhaps, but why is it called a "verse" when it functions as an introduction? Yeah, that may be why I always thought of them as "intros." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceH Posted January 29, 2006 Report Share Posted January 29, 2006 "Refrain" is what I should do when this stuff comes up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free For All Posted August 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 29, 2009 Does anyone know if the tune Polkadots and Moonbeams has a verse (or refrain, whatever), and if so, is there a recorded version of it? Thanks in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted August 29, 2009 Report Share Posted August 29, 2009 I searched my collection, and tried a few google searches, and I couldn't find any such evidence. For some reason, I thought there was a verse to that... and maybe there is, but I thought I had a recording... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_forumlogo.png.a607ef20a6e0c299ab2aa6443aa1f32e.png)
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.