Christiern Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 That's why he moved from Manhattan to Bergenfield, NJ. Having seen the all-star group that regularly occupied the reception area couch at Riverside, I understand why Bob relocated. BTW, before anyone brings up the tired myth, let us make it clear that Bob Weinstock did not seek out addicts to record. They were everywhere in those days--it was a big problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 Yes, I didn't mean to imply that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christiern Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 Of course I knew you weren't implying that, Chuck--no informed person would, I just brought it up to stem off the misinformation that Blue Note fanatics like to toss around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 I just brought it up to stem off the misinformation that Blue Note fanatics like to toss around. That stuff has circulated for years about all the labels. In the mid '60s I heard BN kept Ike Quebec around to "supply" the musicians so they were ok for the record date. Too many "stories" to stop them all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 (edited) I'm most grateful to Chris & Chuck for that illuminating little discussion. I think we pay far too little attention to the people who do whatever it's called to get recorded music out into the world. People like Bob have always fascinated me. MG Edited January 19, 2006 by The Magnificent Goldberg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christiern Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 It is interesting to note that the people who founded the record labels we so rightly revere started as fans and record collectors. Bill Grauer and Orrin Keepnews (Riverside), Bob Weinstock (Prestige), the Ertegun brothers (Atlantic), Wolf and Lion (Blue Note), etc. ...and they all knew each other, bought and sold 78 rpm discs among themselves, etc. Those little labels (and they all had a humble start) grew out of love for the music. Now, sadly, the amazing harvest has been swallowed up by corporations that have little or no interest in the music beyond recycling what they acquired and watching the profit margin grow with each re-release. Of course, many of the people who founded the independent labels did quite well when they let go, but I think they earned that bonus. I also think they deserved to see their efforts respected and in some ways perpetuated. As we see, lawyers and accountants won't do either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron S Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 I also think they deserved to see their efforts respected and in some ways perpetuated. As we see, lawyers and accountants won't do either. With some rare exceptions, such as Lester Koenig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 I just brought it up to stem off the misinformation that Blue Note fanatics like to toss around. That stuff has circulated for years about all the labels. In the mid '60s I heard BN kept Ike Quebec around to "supply" the musicians so they were ok for the record date. Too many "stories" to stop them all. Hell, I've heard that Lion kept a hotel room on permanent reservation for pre-session fixing, so as not to freak out Rudy about the use of his men's room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 It is interesting to note that the people who founded the record labels we so rightly revere started as fans and record collectors. Bill Grauer and Orrin Keepnews (Riverside), Bob Weinstock (Prestige), the Ertegun brothers (Atlantic), Wolf and Lion (Blue Note), etc. ...and they all knew each other, bought and sold 78 rpm discs among themselves, etc. Those little labels (and they all had a humble start) grew out of love for the music. Now, sadly, the amazing harvest has been swallowed up by corporations that have little or no interest in the music beyond recycling what they acquired and watching the profit margin grow with each re-release. Of course, many of the people who founded the independent labels did quite well when they let go, but I think they earned that bonus. I also think they deserved to see their efforts respected and in some ways perpetuated. As we see, lawyers and accountants won't do either. I worked out in 1959 that some record copanies were particularly good at making records I liked; Atlantic and Chess to start off with. I couldn't work out why that should be so and guessed that the proprietors were fans. But I suspect that what you saw may have been a local phenomenon, because as I've read more biographical material on these guys (almost none on Bob Weinstock, however), I found out that at least as many of them were not fans as were. Herman Lubinsky was reckoned to have no taste in music - went mad when he heard Phil Guilbeau's Bebop solo in Paul Williams' "The hucklebuck". But others say he had good taste in Gospel music and, indeed, though it was the market leader for Bebop in the '40s, Savoy is more to be revered as the greatest Gospel label, with Malaco and Rev Milton Biggham continuing where Lubinsky and Fred Mendelson left off in the late '70s. The same appears to be true of the Chess brothers, who weren't great fans and treated Muddy Waters like shit - Sid Nathan, owner of King records (another who wasn't a fan) records that he visited Chess to find Muddy painting the house because, "Mr Chess said if I do a good job painting the house, we're going to eat tonight". It's also true of Art Rupe, who owned Specialty; The Bihari family, who owned Modern; The Mesner brothers, who owned Aladdin; and Don Robey, who owned Peacock. I think it's noteworthy that none of these others (apart from Lubinsky) was based in the New York area and perhaps the fact that the New Yorkers did all know each other and swapped 78s (which I never knew before) contributed to the initial impetus for each to start up a record company. They also all had before them the example of Milt Gabler at Commodore. I guess that was a place where they all bought records. I do agree with you that they earned their bonuses when they sold their companies (those that did). All of them, fans or not, were pioneers in something that, on the face of it, was highly risky in the '40s; black music of one sort or another. The world would have been a very different place had it been left to Decca, Victor and Columbia. MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 it is interesting, because I've heard Jackie McLean complain that he felt the junkie musicians were taken advantage of, doing lots of quick sessions to get the money to feed the habit - of course, it works both ways, as these musicians were probably happy to go in, play the music, and get the money. Fortunately it coincided with a period of time when the music was fresh and creative - though I'm always amused by the take in one of Jackie's sessions where everything breaks down and they all start arguing. Dealing with junkies takes it's toll - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 it is interesting, because I've heard Jackie McLean complain that he felt the junkie musicians were taken advantage of, doing lots of quick sessions to get the money to feed the habit - of course, it works both ways, as these musicians were probably happy to go in, play the music, and get the money. Fortunately it coincided with a period of time when the music was fresh and creative - though I'm always amused by the take in one of Jackie's sessions where everything breaks down and they all start arguing. Dealing with junkies takes it's toll - And there's the wonderful "Hog maws, false start" on Lou Donaldson's "Lightfoot", which has a lovely argument and was included in the original issue of the LP. I've never heard that Lou was on drugs, however. I doubt if they're a necessary precondition to an argument. MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 maybe not, but it helps if everyone's strung out and cranky - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christiern Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 (edited) MG: "But I suspect that what you saw may have been a local phenomenon, because as I've read more biographical material on these guys (almost none on Bob Weinstock, however), I found out that at least as many of them were not fans as were." There is a reason (and you nailed it) why I did not mention Lubinsky, the Chess brothers, et al. Sure, there were absolute bastards in this business, too, people who saw an opportunity to make money. Altruism is a wonderful spark, but there often comes a time when reality has to chip away at it. I don't believe that artists were ever "treated as shit" at Blue Note, Riverside, Prestige, or Atlantic--at least not from what I observed first hand. Sure, they rarely received more than the minimum union fee and royalties were something most artists never saw, but neither were the independent jazz labels raking in the money. It was r&b, not jazz that gave Atlantic its financial boost, and we all know that Creedence Clearwater Revival turned on Fantasy's fortune and enabled them to eventually acquire Riverside and Prestige. Now, of course, Archie Bunker has all that! BTW, you mentioned Arthur Rupe--here's a piece from yesterday's LA Times that brings you up to date on him. I placed it in the political forum to avoid a nasty scream from Florida Rupe in the news Edited January 19, 2006 by Christiern Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 MG: "But I suspect that what you saw may have been a local phenomenon, because as I've read more biographical material on these guys (almost none on Bob Weinstock, however), I found out that at least as many of them were not fans as were." There is a reason (and you nailed it) why I did not mention Lubinsky, the Chess brothers, et al. Sure, there were absolute bastards in this business, too, people who saw an opportunity to make money. Altruism is a wonderful spark, but there often comes a time when reality has to chip away at it. I don't believe that artists were ever "treated as shit" at Blue Note, Riverside, Prestige, or Atlantic--at least not from what I observed first hand. Sure, they rarely received more than the minimum union fee and royalties were something most artists never saw, but neither were the independent jazz labels raking in the money. It was r&b, not jazz that gave Atlantic its financial boost, and we all know that Creedence Clearwater Revival turned on Fantasy's fortune and enabled them to eventually acquire Riverside and Prestige. Now, of course, Archie Bunker has all that! BTW, you mentioned Arthur Rupe--here's a piece from yesterday's LA Times that brings you up to date on him. I placed it in the political forum to avoid a nasty scream from Florida Rupe in the news Thanks for that link Chris. Interesting. MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hardbopjazz Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 This from another board. Bob Weinstock, Founder of the Jazz Label Prestige, Dies at 77 The late Mort Fega and I became friendly over the final 10 years of Mort's life. (Like Weinstock, Mort had also retired to Florida.) In a conversation one day Mort told me about Weinstock's complete collection of Prestige recordings, including all of the various offshoot labels: on several shelves were a collection of ALL of them, in NUMERICAL ORDER and in PRISTINE condition! > > Collector heaven! > > George > Makes me wonder what is on those shelves that our ears haven't heard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannonball-addict Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 RIP Bob Weinstock. I will never forget your name. P.S. This discussion has been really informative and enlightening to a young 'un like myself. Especially thanks to Chris, Chuck, Allen, and MG for your stories and historical anecdotes. I truly hope that the present and future of jazz holds some promise for small labels that are labors of love. I have the feeling that MaxJazz (the Macdonalds in St. Louis), Dreyfus (Francis Dreyfus), Sunnyside (Francois Zalacain), Fresh Sound/New Talent (Jordi Pujol), Steeplechase (some Scandanavian fellow whose name I forget), Criss Cross (Gerry Teekens), and Stunt (a Danish fellow) are conducting these sorts of operations that hark back on an era when it was about the love for the music. But obviously the world is a much different place today than it was back in the 50s. Note that almost all these guys are from Europe today. Jazz is not dead. It just smells funny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKE BBB Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 ...Steeplechase (some Scandanavian fellow whose name I forget)... Nils Winther Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost of miles Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 Noal Cohen posted this to the Hardbop list, and it got re-posted to Yahoo Songbirds... so third time's a charm for Organissimo! The following comes from Terri Hinte's "Berkeley Item" (newsletter from Fantasy records, now part of Concord). Weinstock's "blunders" are interesting. Begin forwarded message: ============ Weinstock also revealed three that got away: Harry Belafonte, who offered him some calypso sides that the producer turned down, only to see Belafonte become "the hottest vocalist in America"; Jimmy Smith, who went on to success at Blue Note after Weinstock told him "Man, I can't put that out. That's not what I'm doing" ("After that I signed the next best six or eight jazz organists I could find"); and -- what he calls his biggest blunder -- Bob Dylan, whom Weinstock met around the time he was starting up the Prestige/Folklore label. "I asked [this one dealer at the Folklore Center on Bleecker Street] if Dylan had ever recorded (which he hadn't), and was told not to bother recording him, just listen to Woody Guthrie instead." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 Noal Cohen posted this to the Hardbop list, and it got re-posted to Yahoo Songbirds... so third time's a charm for Organissimo! The following comes from Terri Hinte's "Berkeley Item" (newsletter from Fantasy records, now part of Concord). Weinstock's "blunders" are interesting. Begin forwarded message: ============ Weinstock also revealed three that got away: Harry Belafonte, who offered him some calypso sides that the producer turned down, only to see Belafonte become "the hottest vocalist in America"; Jimmy Smith, who went on to success at Blue Note after Weinstock told him "Man, I can't put that out. That's not what I'm doing" ("After that I signed the next best six or eight jazz organists I could find"); and -- what he calls his biggest blunder -- Bob Dylan, whom Weinstock met around the time he was starting up the Prestige/Folklore label. "I asked [this one dealer at the Folklore Center on Bleecker Street] if Dylan had ever recorded (which he hadn't), and was told not to bother recording him, just listen to Woody Guthrie instead." Struth!! Thanks for posting that. Good thing he missed Belafonte and Dylan. MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christiern Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 Might as well post Terri's piece on Bob in its entirety: Producer BOB WEINSTOCK, who was a 20-year-old jazz collector and fan when he founded Prestige Records in 1949, died last Saturday (1/14) in Boca Raton, FL. He was 77. Weinstock parlayed his passion for jazz first into a successful retail operation and then, in short order, his own record label, which became one of the major jazz indies of the 1950s and '60s. (It was sold to Fantasy, Inc. in 1972, and acquired by the Concord Music Group in 2004.) Prestige's first recording session was held on January 11, 1949, when Weinstock cut four sides featuring Lee Konitz and Lennie Tristano that were issued on 78s on New Jazz, the original name of the company. He had an early hit with King Pleasure and "Moody's Mood for Love" and solid sellers with records by Gene Ammons and Sonny Stitt, but arguably the label's most important affiliation was with Miles Davis, who came on board in 1951. In a 1989 interview with James Rozzi, Weinstock recalled how he came to sign the trumpeter: "Miles had vanished after he did those Capitol sides with the nonet [1949]; nobody knew where he was. Somebody had said that he may be at home in East St. Louis, so while I was in Chicago on business, I tracked him down. His father was a dentist, so I knew that his number would be in the phone book. I called information, got the number, called, and Miles answered. . . . I said that I was interested in doing a series of recordings, and that I wanted to sign him to a contract. He said alright, just get him to New York and we'd talk about it then." Weinstock also revealed three that got away: Harry Belafonte, who offered him some calypso sides that the producer turned down, only to see Belafonte become "the hottest vocalist in America"; Jimmy Smith, who went on to success at Blue Note after Weinstock told him "Man, I can't put that out. That's not what I'm doing" ("After that I signed the next best six or eight jazz organists I could find"); and--what he calls his biggest blunder--Bob Dylan, whom Weinstock met around the time he was starting up the Prestige/Folklore label. "I asked [this one dealer at the Folklore Center on Bleecker Street] if Dylan had ever recorded (which he hadn't), and was told not to bother recording him, just listen to Woody Guthrie instead." Here are a few of the artists Bob Weinstock did record: the Modern Jazz Quartet, John Coltrane, Mose Allison, Sonny Rollins, Eric Dolphy, Booker Little, Jaki Byard, Thelonious Monk, Red Garland, Dexter Gordon, Etta Jones, Ron Carter, Pat Martino, Phil Woods, Roosevelt Sykes, King Curtis, George Benson, Charles McPherson, Andy Bey, Curtis Fuller, Art Farmer, Tom Rush, Stan Getz, Benny Golson, Eddie "Lockjaw" Davis, Jimmy Witherspoon, Harold Mabern, Shirley Scott, Rev. Gary Davis, Eddie Jefferson, the Holy Modal Rounders, Jack McDuff, Lightnin' Hopkins, Tadd Dameron, Booker Ervin, Illinois Jacquet, Yusef Lateef, Oliver Nelson, Houston Person, Jerome Richardson, Lonnie Johnson, Jackie McLean. . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 I'm sorry, but not one of those guys is listed as one of the top 50 jazz pianists of all times, at least according to the top jazz minds - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 wel, maybe a few - but where's Andre Previn? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 Weinstock also revealed three that got away: Harry Belafonte, who offered him some calypso sides that the producer turned down, only to see Belafonte become "the hottest vocalist in America"; Jimmy Smith, who went on to success at Blue Note after Weinstock told him "Man, I can't put that out. That's not what I'm doing" ("After that I signed the next best six or eight jazz organists I could find") I find this extremely funny for some reason. "That's not what I'm doing!" What, making money? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 Weinstock also revealed three that got away: Harry Belafonte, who offered him some calypso sides that the producer turned down, only to see Belafonte become "the hottest vocalist in America"; Jimmy Smith, who went on to success at Blue Note after Weinstock told him "Man, I can't put that out. That's not what I'm doing" ("After that I signed the next best six or eight jazz organists I could find") I find this extremely funny for some reason. "That's not what I'm doing!" What, making money? You're a bit late, Jim You'da bin rich in the sixties, I'm sure. MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soulstation1 Posted January 26, 2006 Report Share Posted January 26, 2006 E-music doesn't even have a note or anything re: Weinstock passing.. Kinda strange Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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