Cootie Williams and 'Round Midnight

[Hardbopjazz]

It seems over the years Monk gets most of the credit for writing Round Midnight, when it was co-written with Cootie Williams. How much input did Williams have on the writing of Jazz's greatest known tune?

Edited January 10, 2006 by Hardbopjazz

[Spontooneous]

It seems over the years Monk gets most of the credit for writing Round Midnight, when it was co-written with Cootie Williams. How much input did Williams have on the writing of Jazz's greatest known tune?

Little if any, I'd bet. Williams made the first recording of it, and in bygone days bandleaders often got co-composer credit, even when they didn't deserve it. (That's how Benny Goodman's name got on "Stompin' at the Savoy." And that's how Elvis Presley got composer credits on a lot of his hits.)

[Kalo]

What Spontooneous said.

I always assumed that Williams claimed rights to "Round Midnight" because he was the bandleader who "sponsored" its introduction.

On the other hand, Ellington no doubt copped a few licks from Cootie over the years....

And Monk borrowed a few licks himself, it must be said.

What goes around, comes around. I'm profoundly glad that all of these men contributed what they did the music.

[brownie]

Bud Powell is the one who had his bandleader Cootie Williams introduced to Monk's 'Round Midnight'. The tune was added to the Cootie Williams band repertoire.

Bud was the piano player when Cootie recorded it for the first time in August 1944.

Cootie's contribution to the composition seems to be the introduction he added to the Monk tune.

[EKE BBB]

The earliest recording of "Round midnight" is an acetate Monk recorded for Timme Rosenkranz prior to Cootie's 1944 recording.

Cootie didn´t contribute to the tune, and had to pay (around $200) for the rights to use it for a

shorter period. It became his band´s theme song. Shortly before, the band´s theme song had been "Epistrophy"(aka "Fly Right").

In 1946, Dizzy Gillespie added his famous introduction and cadenza for his big band arrangement, which

proved so popular that Monk added it (an altered version) to his own performance of "Round Midnight."

[AllenLowe]

actually Cootie changed the name - originally it was called "11:45" -

[EKE BBB]

actually Cootie changed the name - originally it was called "11:45" -

I thought the alternative title was 'Round About Midnight and Grand Finale'

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

People crack on about the Eckstine band being the cradle of Bebop but Cootie & co were well ahead of the game. That band recorded "Fly right" in 1942. Does that make them pre-natal?

MG

[AllenLowe]

Cootie's band was still basically a swing band, except for Bud -

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

And Cleanhead, who wrote some classic bop numbers. And Charlie Parker a bit later in 1944.

MG

[Swinging Swede]

Don't forget Joe Guy, who on Fly Right (Epistrophy) takes a very advanced trumpet solo for being 1942, perhaps more advanced than anything Dizzy had recorded up to that point. This is one of the few commercial pre-record-ban recordings (other than Bird with McShann of course) where you can really hear that something is in the air. And it wasn't even released in its time!

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Don't forget Joe Guy, who on Fly Right (Epistrophy) takes a very advanced trumpet solo for being 1942, perhaps more advanced than anything Dizzy had recorded up to that point. This is one of the few commercial pre-record-ban recordings (other than Bird with McShann of course) where you can really hear that something is in the air. And it wasn't even released in its time!

I HAD forgotten; thanks for mentioning this. I reckon Cootie's band is well underrated.

MG

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

There's another thing: I didn't know Monk sold Cootie the rights. Because Cootie got his name on the label as part composer, I suspect he must have bought a share of the copyright for a time.

"Round Midnight" was issued as the B side of "Somebody's got to go", featuring a great Cleanhead vocal, which spent three months in the R&B top ten, reaching the top.

Monk must have felt a bit green around the gills at only getting half the royalties on the song, plus the $200.

I also forgot that Jaws was in that band, as well. Jaws may not have been a Bebop hero, but there's no doubting his ability to get around.

MG

[JamesJazz]

Didn't know "Round Midnight" was originally "11:45"...or that there was a Monk version recorded by Frozenpants...dare I ask if it still exists?

Interestingly, Howard McGhee recorded "11:45 Swing"...was there something special about 11:45? And nobody better suggest it is special because it's .... AROUND MIDNIGHT.

[AllenLowe]

there was some initial confusion because it was written just before daylight savings time -

[AllenLowe]

also, when Cootie's band was playing it in NYC, it was "8:45" on the West Coast -

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

And 4:45 AM the next day in Britain...

MG

[medjuck]

Cootie's band was still basically a swing band, except for Bud -

The band also recorded a number called "The Boppers". I'll dig it up and give it a listen again.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Cootie's band was still basically a swing band, except for Bud -

The band also recorded a number called "The Boppers". I'll dig it up and give it a listen again.

That was originally called "Floogie boo" and, according to the sleeve notes, was written by Cootie and Cleanhead. It was recorded on 4 Jan 1944, some weeks before Coleman Hawkins made the first Bebop record. (Ahem!)

MG

[medjuck]

Cootie's band was still basically a swing band, except for Bud -

The band also recorded a number called "The Boppers". I'll dig it up and give it a listen again.

That was originally called "Floogie boo" and, according to the sleeve notes, was written by Cootie and Cleanhead. It was recorded on 4 Jan 1944, some weeks before Coleman Hawkins made the first Bebop record. (Ahem!)

MG

The cd on which I have it (Jazz Archives) claims that it was written by Cootie alone and that it's the same as "You Talk a Little Trash"-- which it is, just speeded up. However the cd notes also make the dubious claim that the alto solo may be by Bird, so who knows how much they can be trusted.

BTW I'd say that Ken Kersey who plays on Epistrophy also brings some Bop to the band.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Cootie's band was still basically a swing band, except for Bud -

The band also recorded a number called "The Boppers". I'll dig it up and give it a listen again.

That was originally called "Floogie boo" and, according to the sleeve notes, was written by Cootie and Cleanhead. It was recorded on 4 Jan 1944, some weeks before Coleman Hawkins made the first Bebop record. (Ahem!)

MG

The cd on which I have it (Jazz Archives) claims that it was written by Cootie alone and that it's the same as "You Talk a Little Trash"-- which it is, just speeded up. However the cd notes also make the dubious claim that the alto solo may be by Bird, so who knows how much they can be trusted.

BTW I'd say that Ken Kersey who plays on Epistrophy also brings some Bop to the band.

I hadn't noticed that - I'll play them both later. The sleeve of my edition (Phoenix LP1) just gives Williams as the writer of Trash but both him and Vinson for the same song faster. Funny.... ?

MG

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Cootie's band was still basically a swing band, except for Bud -

The band also recorded a number called "The Boppers". I'll dig it up and give it a listen again.

That was originally called "Floogie boo" and, according to the sleeve notes, was written by Cootie and Cleanhead. It was recorded on 4 Jan 1944, some weeks before Coleman Hawkins made the first Bebop record. (Ahem!)

MG

The cd on which I have it (Jazz Archives) claims that it was written by Cootie alone and that it's the same as "You Talk a Little Trash"-- which it is, just speeded up. However the cd notes also make the dubious claim that the alto solo may be by Bird, so who knows how much they can be trusted.

BTW I'd say that Ken Kersey who plays on Epistrophy also brings some Bop to the band.

I hadn't noticed that - I'll play them both later. The sleeve of my edition (Phoenix LP1) just gives Williams as the writer of Trash but both him and Vinson for the same song faster. Funny.... ?

MG

Just listened to them both. I don't think they're the same tune. They're both blues. There are some similar figures in them. That's it, far's I cnsi.

MG

[bichos]

The earliest recording of "Round midnight" is an acetate Monk recorded for Timme Rosenkranz prior to Cootie's 1944 recording.

."

eke bbb,

can you please give more informations about this monk recording from timme rosenkranz? i thought the earliest monk recording of his tune was with dizzy´s big band from around jun./jul. 1946.

is this recording avaiable elswhere? i know timme´s recordings from garner, byas and some others but monk?

keep boppin´

marcel

[EKE BBB]

Marcel:

The origins, composer credits and first recordings of "Round midnight" were discussed in the duke-lym mail group a few weeks ago.

That´s where I found mention of this earlier recording of this tune. Source is a very reliable member of that list, regarding discographical issues.

No idea if this is available anywhere. I´ve asked in that list.

[bichos]

Marcel:

The origins, composer credits and first recordings of "Round midnight" were discussed in the duke-lym mail group a few weeks ago.

That´s where I found mention of this earlier recording of this tune. Source is a very reliable member of that list, regarding discographical issues.

No idea if this is available anywhere. I´ve asked in that list.

eke bbb,

that´s nice! thanks in advance. that´s exciting to know new details in monk´s discographical oeuvre!

keep boppin´

marcel