Its That Time Of Year

[JSngry]

I propose a Hall Of The Very Good.

And make Vada Pinson a charter member!

[Matthew]

Just on a side note: The best fielding first basemen I ever saw was not Hernandez, but Wes Parker. Not too many people remember Parker though....

[Dan Gould]

Just on a side note: The best fielding first basemen I ever saw was not Hernandez, but Wes Parker. Not too many people remember Parker though....

Couple of Sox first basemen could pick 'em pretty good too: Cecil Cooper and George 'Boomer' Scott. Scott won 8 Gold Gloves, the first three with the Sox. Cooper won two, but both were with Milwaukee.

[Brownian Motion]

I propose a Hall Of The Very Good.

And make Vada Pinson a charter member!

Along with Jerry Koosman.

[Quincy]

I propose a Hall Of The Very Good.

And make Vada Pinson a charter member!

Along with Jerry Koosman.

Yes indeed on both. And how could I forget Vida Blue?

[paul secor]

Ron Guidry's my second all time favorite player, but I don't think he belongs in the Hall - even though Bill James once posted his lifetime stats and then posted Sandy Koufax's, and they were almost identical.

Hey, maybe nobody deserves to go in this year. Just because there's an election doesn't mean that SOMEONE has to go in.

[Matthew]

I propose a Hall Of The Very Good.

And make Vada Pinson a charter member!

Add Willie McGee to that HOTVG

[Dan Gould]

Ron Guidry's my second all time favorite player, but I don't think he belongs in the Hall - even though Bill James once posted his lifetime stats and then posted Sandy Koufax's, and they were almost identical.

What a ridiculous comparison. Guidry pitched til he was 37, and his career ended due to his ineffectiveness.

Koufax quit at 30, his best years ahead of him, and in his last five years, had gone 129-34. Guidry went 48-40 in his last five seasons. Guidry won one Cy Young and two ERA titles. Koufax won three Cy Youngs and five ERA titles.

Guidry was awesome for one year, very good for two others (his other two 20 win seasons), and decent in a fourth year (18-8). That isn't anywhere near HoF calibre, and to compare it to Koufax is just nuts.

A better comparison might be to El Tiante, who had four 20 win seasons and a lifetime ERA that was more than half a run better.

[Matthew]

I'm afraid I have to go along with Dan on this one -- when ever you read anything from people who saw Koufax pitch, people wern't just saying that he was "very good", or an "outstanding pitcher", they were all saying he was one of the best ever. Guidry, in his prime was great, but I didn't hear anyone ranking him up with the all-time greats.

[Brownian Motion]

Dan,

Your being harsh doesn't bother me but, yes, there are a lot of people in the Hall who don't qualify to be there. We're in agreement there. Was Don Sutton a great pitcher? Good, not Hall-wothy.

Quincy,

Excellent list. Of those on your list, I think the following bear consideration for inclusion:

C - Munson

P - Tiant, Guidry, Kaat

I just think it should be very hard to get in.

Would you please explain why these 3 pitchers qualify for the Hall, while Don Sutton doesn't?

[BERIGAN]

I propose a Hall Of The Very Good.

And make Vada Pinson a charter member!

Add Willie McGee to that HOTVG

I was thinking the very same thing the other day when I saw this thread!

2254 hits, and a .295 B.A. are nothing to be ashamed of! He was about the fastest player in the game in his youth, but I seem to recall he didn't like to steal, for some reason. And how he could hit so well with such a weak looking swing!

[BERIGAN]

and don't forget Ken Griffey Sr. 2143 hits, .296 B.A.

[Quincy]

Add Willie McGee to that HOTVG

I was thinking the very same thing the other day when I saw this thread!

2254 hits, and a .295 B.A. are nothing to be ashamed of! He was about the fastest player in the game in his youth, but I seem to recall he didn't like to steal, for some reason. And how he could hit so well with such a weak looking swing!

He swiped quite a few in youth but dropped off in his early 30s. Though back then stealing 40 or 50 wasn't such a big deal. Ah the good old days.

Another of the very good and also a former Cardinal - in fact in the Redbird uniform he was one of my first baseball cards - Jose Cruz. His power numbers were hurt by hitting in the Astrodome all those years. By the time he made it to a a park with a short right porch (Yankee) he was too old to make use of it. Still, a nice mix of a bit of speed & a modest amount of power.

[Matthew]

I often wonder if it's the uniforms from the 70' & 80's that really keep players out of the Hall of Fame?

[Chuck Nessa]

A better comparison might be to El Tiante, who had four 20 win seasons and a lifetime ERA that was more than half a run better.

Brings me back to the Red Sox seasons of '73 and '74. Mid afternoon I'd jump on a train and two stops from my office I'd be at Fenway. Bleachers were $2 and you could drink beer.

[Matthew]

A better comparison might be to El Tiante, who had four 20 win seasons and a lifetime ERA that was more than half a run better.

Brings me back to the Red Sox seasons of '73 and '74. Mid afternoon I'd jump on a train and two stops from my office I'd be at Fenway. Bleachers were $2 and you could drink beer.

Yeah, early 70's in San Diego I lived at the 'Murph, GA was $1.50. My parents were very happy to give me five bucks, drop my off at the stadium, and be rid of me for a couple of hours -- the positive side of being an abandoned child! The days when you could afford to go to games -- long gone I'm afraid. No wonder today's youth really don't get into baseball.

[paul secor]

Ron Guidry's my second all time favorite player, but I don't think he belongs in the Hall - even though Bill James once posted his lifetime stats and then posted Sandy Koufax's, and they were almost identical.

What a ridiculous comparison. Guidry pitched til he was 37, and his career ended due to his ineffectiveness.

Koufax quit at 30, his best years ahead of him, and in his last five years, had gone 129-34. Guidry went 48-40 in his last five seasons. Guidry won one Cy Young and two ERA titles. Koufax won three Cy Youngs and five ERA titles.

Guidry was awesome for one year, very good for two others (his other two 20 win seasons), and decent in a fourth year (18-8). That isn't anywhere near HoF calibre, and to compare it to Koufax is just nuts.

A better comparison might be to El Tiante, who had four 20 win seasons and a lifetime ERA that was more than half a run better.

Dan - Bill James, who is, or at least was, employed by your beloved Sox, made the comparison. I didn't. And neither he nor I made the claim that Guidry belongs in the Hall - please read my post. I believe that James was making the point that statistics aren't everything.

I'm surprised that you would bring Tiant's name up as a possibility for the HoF. I seem to remember that he was another traitor/"Judas" who took the bucks and joined the Evil Empire.

[Soulstation1]

78 topps

[Quincy]

78 topps

That's a beauty and I have it too. For some reason all of the Yankee starter cards in that set are in action. Great looking cards of Munson, Rivers, Nettles and Jackson to name a few. Most of the rest of the player shots used were the usual boring spring training ballpark poses. That was the last year I collected cards in a big way, though many years later I started getting a few packs in my Christmas stocking. Still a kick to open a pack, but it's kind of sad how much more they cost for fewer cards, even if they have fancier photos & graphics. And other than the retro sets, none of say things like "Sparky (Lyle) likes to sit on birthday cakes."

Edited January 8, 2006 by Quincy

[JSngry]

Mike Cuellar was a damn good pitcher for a fair amount of time that everybody seems to have forgotten about. Didn't get w/a good team until he was 32.

[Dan Gould]

Ron Guidry's my second all time favorite player, but I don't think he belongs in the Hall - even though Bill James once posted his lifetime stats and then posted Sandy Koufax's, and they were almost identical.

What a ridiculous comparison. Guidry pitched til he was 37, and his career ended due to his ineffectiveness.

Koufax quit at 30, his best years ahead of him, and in his last five years, had gone 129-34. Guidry went 48-40 in his last five seasons. Guidry won one Cy Young and two ERA titles. Koufax won three Cy Youngs and five ERA titles.

Guidry was awesome for one year, very good for two others (his other two 20 win seasons), and decent in a fourth year (18-8). That isn't anywhere near HoF calibre, and to compare it to Koufax is just nuts.

A better comparison might be to El Tiante, who had four 20 win seasons and a lifetime ERA that was more than half a run better.

Dan - Bill James, who is, or at least was, employed by your beloved Sox, made the comparison. I didn't. And neither he nor I made the claim that Guidry belongs in the Hall - please read my post. I believe that James was making the point that statistics aren't everything.

I'm surprised that you would bring Tiant's name up as a possibility for the HoF. I seem to remember that he was another traitor/"Judas" who took the bucks and joined the Evil Empire.

Just because someone is connected to the Sox or disassociates themselves has nothing to do with whether they get a free pass on stupidity or recognition of their talent.

[Dan Gould]

Good piece in today's Times about Hall of Fame balloting through the years:

Keeping Score

The Great State of Baseball Casts Its Ballot for (Your Name Here)

By ALAN SCHWARZ

Published: January 8, 2006

Tony Perez does not understand it either. For most of the 1990's, he was told that his title immemorial had not quite ripened to Hall of Famer. He spent eight years on the Cooperstown ballot before finally being knighted in 2000.

"One year you're up, the next year you're down," Perez said recently. "I never know. One year no, then yes. I don't know how they do it."

Although a Hall of Famer is known as such forever, many take what seems like forever to have the appellation bestowed. Dozens have spent 5 or 10 years hovering around 50 percent of the annual vote by the Baseball Writers' Association of America - far short of the required 75 percent - with the unmistakable message that half the voters consider them unworthy of the Hall of Fame. But without hitting a home run or throwing a shutout for a decade or more, most of these bridesmaids eventually become impressive enough to reach the altar.

The voting for this year's class, to be announced Tuesday, could easily become another example of this. Last year's near misses - like Bruce Sutter (67 percent), Jim Rice (60 percent) and Rich Gossage (55 percent) - will be happy to learn that history has treated their predecessors extraordinarily well.

Sutter is in great company because in this arena, no one forgets who finishes second. Since 1968, of the 28 other players who finished with the highest percentage of the vote without being elected, 21 have been elected eventually, most the next year, and 4 who were in their last year on the ballot were later chosen by the veterans committee. Nowhere else can "Wait till next year!" brim with such confidence.

Many players further down the ladder climb to the top. Don Drysdale, Eddie Mathews and Duke Snider are recognized today as Hall of Famers, but they spent an average of eight years outside the gates, often finishing with 40 percent to 50 percent of the vote while nays slowly became yeas.

Snider was favored by only 17 percent of voters his first year on the ballot, 1970. Luis Aparicio, who got the nod from 2 percent in 1981, must have mounted one heck of a public relations campaign; he received 84 percent and a plaque only three years later.

Over all, a quarter of the players who got 40 percent to 49 percent of the vote eventually rose above the required 75 percent. Getting 50 percent to 59 percent meant subsequent good news two-thirds of the time, and getting 60 percent to 74 percent once meant eventual election 75 percent of the time.

Clearly, a decade after retirement, a player's performance on the field can mean less than his performance in the voting; like high schoolers conferring beside their lockers, voters often wait for others' approval before joining in.

Jayson Stark, an ESPN.com reporter who has voted in the last 15 elections, said: "I feel as if my job is to look at a player and decide whether he's a Hall of Famer or not, and vote that way every year unless something significant comes along to change my mind. But some people don't look at it that way. They say, 'I want Ozzie Smith to go in alone this year,' or 'This guy doesn't feel like he should get in yet.' Those are the biggest reasons for the zigzagging."

As capricious as this appears - given how enshrinement in Cooperstown is probably the most hallowed individual honor in team sports - the early history of Hall of Fame voting makes it look downright rational. Back in the 1940's and 50's, when dozens were deserving but writers still preferred choosing only two or three, it became almost impossible to gain the 75 percent consensus. Even Joe DiMaggio got less than half the vote his first year, 1953, and failed again the next year before getting in.

Although most worthy candidates - and many unworthy ones - have been elected, this wait-your-turn dynamic still exists in lesser form. For example, Carlton Fisk had the misfortune of making his debut on the ballot in 1999, the year for the shoo-ins George Brett, Nolan Ryan and Robin Yount. So he had to wait until 2000, when the crowd had thinned, and he and Perez were invited.

Three years later, Ryne Sandberg, the great Cubs second baseman for most of the 1980's and early 1990's, got 49 percent of the vote in his first year on the ballot. He rose to 61 percent on his next try, then to 76 percent last year, earning a plaque that hangs with those of all the other Hall of Famers - among the Seavers and Robinsons, who did not have to wait, as well as the Drysdales and Perezes, who did for years.

"I don't think that's it's ever too late, and I don't think it diminishes the honor at all," Sandberg said last January. "You're either in the Hall of Fame or you're not."

Eventually.

Edited January 8, 2006 by Dan Gould

[Rooster_Ties]

[Soulstation1]

back to 78 topps

i have a MINT complete set

Edited January 9, 2006 by Soulstation1

[ghost of miles]

The 1978 cards were really nice. I had a complete set once upon a time...