Its That Time Of Year

[Dan Gould]

Results will be announced next Tuesday, I believe, and it should be an interesting ballot, with no "slam-dunk" new candidates (Albert Belle, anyone?) and a widespread perception that in the wake of the steroid scandal, the career stats of people like Jim Rice and Dave Parker will get the respect they deserve.

So, let's play Vote for the Hall of Fame. Specifically, name up to 10 candidates from this year's ballot who you believe deserve enshrinement.

I'll start:

Jim Rice

From Ken Rosenthal of FoxSports.com:

Rice was dominant for 12 years, from 1975 to '86. During that period, according to research by Red Sox vice-president/historian Dick Bresciani, Rice led the American League in games, at-bats, runs, hits, home runs, RBIs, slugging percentage, total bases and outfield assists.

... Rice is one of only nine retired players with at least 382 homers and a career average of .298. The others are Hank Aaron, Jimmie Foxx, Lou Gehrig, Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays, Stan Musial, Mel Ott, Babe Ruth and Ted Williams — all Hall of Famers.

In the closer category, I think Bruce Sutter, Lee Smith and Goose Gossage belong. I think Yankee fans will agree with me: Yankee fans feared Rice the way Sox fans feared Goose.

In the category of starting pitchers who didn't reach meaningless milestones but still belong in the Hall:

Bert Blyleven and Jack Morris.

And in the category of guy who played with class, guts, intensity and character, Andre Dawson.

And while I know his name isn't on the writer's ballot, but anyone who puts Ron Santo's stats against any other third baseman who has made it knows that the Old Cub belongs.

So who is on your HoF ballot?

[Brad]

The one guy who belongs in but is not eligible except through the Veterans Committee is Gil Hodges. His stats for a certains span are incredible and he was a rock solid first baseman in his time. If that isn't enough, what he did for the Mets shouldn't be glossed over although that technically doesn't count in voting him as a player.

To me, the guys who should get in the Hall are those who when you think of them blow you away and leave your mind as no brainers. As examples, guys like Mays, Ruth, Seaver, Gibson and their like are no brainers. Yaz was a no brainer. All the guys mentioned in Rosenthal's column are no brainers.

However, none of the guys you mention are in that category. I can make cases for Rice and Parker, who was a feared hitter, but not the other guys. They just don't deserve to be in the Hall.

[Matthew]

And then there is the player that had the most talent, and then threw it all away: Dwight Gooden. He had ability to burn, and now, nothing. What could have been.....

[Dan Gould]

Well, Brad, the fact of the matter is that the Hall is loaded with guys who aren't "no-brainers".

If only no-brainers belong, than your beloved Gil Hodges wouldn't even be mentioned. Check out Hodges' Baseball-Reference.com page:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/hodgegi01.shtml

Yes, he had 7 seasons as an All-Star and three Gold Gloves, but the guy never led his league in anything other than games played, sacrifice flies, and strikeouts.

Their "Hall of Fame Monitor" has a score of 100 or greater as a likely member, with 130 or above a virtual cinch. Rice scores 147. Hodges scores 83. In fact, all of the players I identified rank as "likely Hall of Famer" by their measurement, except for Sutter and Santo, and both rank higher than Hodges.

Sorry if I'm being harsh but I do find it ironic that you identify "no-brainer" candidates as the only legit Hall of Famers, reject the ones I identify and then name someone who epitomizes the term "marginal candidate".

[Dan Gould]

And then there is the player that had the most talent, and then threw it all away: Dwight Gooden. He had ability to burn, and now, nothing. What could have been.....

His buddy Strawberry, too.

Ironic to remember that in 1986, Gooden and Clemens were incredible pitchers facing each other in the World Series. 20 years later, look at where Gooden is and what Clemens ended up accomplishing.

[Soulstation1]

strawberry and gooden ...

both wasted away HOF careers

[Brad]

Well, Brad, the fact of the matter is that the Hall is loaded with guys who aren't "no-brainers".

If only no-brainers belong, than your beloved Gil Hodges wouldn't even be mentioned. Check out Hodges' Baseball-Reference.com page:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/hodgegi01.shtml

Yes, he had 7 seasons as an All-Star and three Gold Gloves, but the guy never led his league in anything other than games played, sacrifice flies, and strikeouts.

Their "Hall of Fame Monitor" has a score of 100 or greater as a likely member, with 130 or above a virtual cinch. Rice scores 147. Hodges scores 83. In fact, all of the players I identified rank as "likely Hall of Famer" by their measurement, except for Sutter and Santo, and both rank higher than Hodges.

Sorry if I'm being harsh but I do find it ironic that you identify "no-brainer" candidates as the only legit Hall of Famers, reject the ones I identify and then name someone who epitomizes the term "marginal candidate".

Dan,

Your being harsh doesn't bother me but, yes, there are a lot of people in the Hall who don't qualify to be there. We're in agreement there. Was Don Sutton a great pitcher? Good, not Hall-wothy. I'm not big on these statistical compliations or Bill James types but from 1948 or 1949 to 1957 Gil had the numbers in that era. His career tailed off after that. Did you ever see him play? I did and he was a great first baseman. A prototype.

Like I said I can make a case for Rice. He was good but not great in my book.

Look, you're going to push your candidates as a Sox fan and me as a New York fan and that's what being a fan is all about. Would you care about Rice if you weren't a Sox fan and I about Gil if I weren't from New York, the mecca of Baseball? I doubt it.

Edited January 4, 2006 by Brad

[Quincy]

I liked Rice as player but I would only put him in the Hall of Very Good (with the likes of Mattingly, Keith Hernandez, Tommy John and so on.)

Rice benefited a great deal by playing at Fenway. Here's a list of his career road numbers (AVG, OBP, SLG.)

1975 .304/.343/.464

1976 .266/.291/.455

1977 .319/.377/.509

1978 .269/.325/.512 (18 road HR.)

1979 .283/.337/.472

1980 .283/.323/.487

1981 .263/.309/.394

1982 .297/.408/.426

1983 .283/.337/.566

1984 .272/.313/.428

1985 .232/.309/.434

1986 .310/.381/.454

1987 .252/.326/.374

1988 .252/.301/.365

1989 .222/.269/.364

I was surprised how low his numbers were for his big season in '78. He ate up Fenway that year (.361/.416/.690.)

Rice, Parker & George Foster were monsters in their prime, but I don't think I'd put any of them in the Hall of Fame. I'd be happy to have any of them on my imaginary dream team of non-Hall of Famers though.

I would put in Gossage & Sutter this year. I have so little respect for the save rule that Lee Smith doesn't make it for me, though I sure enjoyed watching him pouring down with sweat while Harry announced.

Blyleven goes in. Parlty because so many of the past pitcher selections have been so sketchy, but he was a great one who just happened to move around a lot. Changing teams so often (the Twins twice!) makes it hard for some to recall what he did. Especially as he did some of it for the Indians & Rangers.

Dawson is a tough one. The dagburned steroid era has made his numbers look weaker in comparison. I'd be tempted to pass this year on him and think it over some more. Had he not burned his knees out playing on plastic on top of concrete in Montreal and instead played on grass he probably would have had an "automatic" career.

Santo YES! Like 15 years ago for Pete's sake. Gee whiz, what's a guy gotta do? Yeah, he did play at Wrigley, but still, what a great third baseman.

I'm very tempted to give Alan Trammell the nod. He was overshadowed by Ripken & Ozzie Smith while he played, and then by the later trio of AL shortstops. I'm more forgiving of infielder batting stats than I am outfielder/1st basemen, and Alan's were pretty good throughout his career. His partner at 2nd Whitaker is close too, but maybe not close enough.

If Jack Morris had pitched in the '30s he'd be automatic. I know he says when his team had an 8-2 lead he says he wouldn't nibble at the corners and instead let the other team hit the ball, resulting in 8-4, 8-5 wins instead. And he was a tough bastard too. As far as AL pitchers who pitched through the full decade of the '80s it's him or Dave Steib. Not the prettiest decade for AL starters, that's for sure. But I'll wuss out and think him over for another year.

[JSngry]

Andre Dawson was one of the most complete players I've ever had the pleasure of watching. Nothing he didn't/couldn't do (although it's ususally not a "glamor" thing for outfielders, his defense - ground covered, arm strength, situational instinct, etc. - was every bit as strong as his offense), and he did it all exceptionally well - and consistently. He easily gets my vote.

[Matthew]

Here is who would get my vote:

Dave Concepcion

Andre Dawson

Rich Gossage

Bruce Sutter

Jack Morris

Jim Rice

Alan Trammell

I think people forger what a wonderful player Concepcion was, his numbers don't compare with the current shortstops, but it was a different game when he played. Goose was awesome in his prime as well as Sutter. It's interesting when he played Rice was overshadowed by Fred Lynn for a lot of years, but geesh, Lynn for awhile was a fantastic player who could do everything. Dave Parker & Dale Murphy just don't do it for me. What is really cool, I saw all these guys play in person. There is nothing that compares in sports that watching a great baseball player at the top of his game.

[Brad]

From Matthew's list, the only ones I consider automatic would be Gossage and Sutter because they revolutionized the position.

The others are nice players, very good players, but not HOF. It should be special and hard to get in and only in there for the very great, not just the very good. And believe there are a lot of very good in there.

I know that Rice, Blyleven, Dawson will probably get in. I just don't think they should.

Looking at the present players, would you mention Pedro and Roger with Blyleven and Morris. Not a chance. Roger and Pedro are automatic. You don't have to think twice about it. That we're having this debate about the others shows they shouldn't get in.

[Matthew]

Here's a list of who can go in -- Sorry too lazy to fix it up and get rid of the underlines:

A

• Rick Aguilera
  

B

• Albert Belle
  
• Bert Blyleven
  

C

• Will Clark
  
• Dave Concepcion
  

D

• Andre Dawson
  
• Gary DiSarcina
  

F

• Alex Fernandez
  

G

• Gary Gaetti
  

G cont.

• Steve Garvey
  
• Dwight Gooden
  
• Rich Gossage
  
• Ozzie Guillen
  

H

• Orel Hershiser
  

J

• Gregg Jefferies
  
• Tommy John
  
• Doug Jones
  

M

• Don Mattingly
  
• Willie McGee
  

M cont.

• Hal Morris
  
• Jack Morris
  
• Dale Murphy
  

P

• Dave Parker
  

R

• Jim Rice
  

S

• Lee Smith
  
• Bruce Sutter
  

T

• Alan Trammell
  

W

• Walt Weiss
  
• John Wetteland
  

[Quincy]

Looking at the present players, would you mention Pedro and Roger with Blyleven and Morris. Not a chance. Roger and Pedro are automatic. You don't have to think twice about it. That we're having this debate about the others shows they shouldn't get in.

I have no problem with setting high standards for the Hall, but the 2 pitchers you name as examples are a couple of the best ever. That's mighty tough company. If you want to make it that exclusive we'd need to toss out some of the ones already in, like (loved him but...) Catfish, Bunning, Drysdale, Sutton, etc. Hmm, on second thought....

I propose a Hall Of The Very Good. Hmm, how about Ely Nevada for a location? After all, it's not Vegas nor Reno, just a very good old gambling town (and what's baseball without gambling?) We'll put Rose & Shoeless Joe here too. Make it the Hall of the Very Good & of Ill Repute.

Here's a list of guys from the just past 30 years or so who aren't in the Hall of Fame and likely won't make it (excluding Dawson, Blyleven for now) but either had some hot prime years or a very good servicable run. I know I've missed many as it was quickly done and it's skewed to the '70s & '80s.

AL

C - Munson, Freehan

1B - Mattingly, Dick Allen (either league)

2B - Frank White, Whitaker. Grich too if you don't think he should be in the Hall.

3B - Nettles, Ventura, Buddy Bell

SS - Trammell, Fernandez

OF - Rice, Belle

CF - Lynn, Otis

OF - Dwight Evans, Baines, Oliva, Maris

P - Tiant (I'd lean towards putting him in Cooperstown), Guidry, Kaat, John, Dave Stewart, Steib, Dennis Leonard, Wilbur Wood, Micky Lolich, McLain, McNally, Cuellar

RP - Sparky Lyle, Quisenberry, John Hiller

OF either league - Frank Howard

NL

C - Ted Simmons (a decent case for him to be in the Hall can be made.)

1B - Will Clark, Keith Hernandez

2B - Lopes

3B - SANTO!, Darrell Evans

SS - Concepcion

OF - Raines, Foster, Pedro Guerrero

CF - Murphy, Cedeno, Eric Davis, Flood, Gary Maddox, Bobby Bonds

OF - Parker, Reggie Smith, Strawberry

P - Gooden, Steve Rogers, Mike Scott, John Candelaria, Orel Hershiser, Dennis Martinez (some good AL years too.) John Tudor, Fernando.

(There seem to be fewer borderline cases in the NL as the ones who made it like Seaver, Carlton, Gibson, Marichal, Koufax were all magnificent & domineering pitchers.)

RP - Lee Smith, Franco, Hrabosky

Many were very exciting players. I still recall a match up between Hrabosky & Foster in the late '70s that was electric. Guidry vs. Rice was some classic baseball too, and that Red Sox OF of the late '70s was terrific.

In the end it's the Hall In Your Head (& Heart) that matters most.

[Johnny E]

[Chuck Nessa]

Pete is a creep beyond description. Do that mean anything?

[Johnny E]

Pete is a creep beyond description. Do that mean anything?

No, it don't mean shit. Charlie Hustle IS baseball as far as I'm concerned. He never threw any games. It's not in his nature. Bet on em’, sure. But that’s different. And as far as I know, being a nice guy isn't a prerequisite to being inducted. Shit, if Cobb can be in the hall, Rose sure as hell should be.

[Chuck Nessa]

Ah, an absolutist.

[PHILLYQ]

Pete is a creep beyond description. Do that mean anything?

No, it don't mean shit. Charlie Hustle IS baseball as far as I'm concerned. He never threw any games. It's not in his nature. Bet on em’, sure. But that’s different. And as far as I know, being a nice guy isn't a prerequisite to being inducted. Shit, if Cobb can be in the hall, Rose sure as hell should be.

After the 'Black Sox' scandal, the one rule in baseball that carried the 'death penalty' was betting on the game. Rose did so while a manager, a position where he could directly influence games. He was a great player, but he crossed the line that could not be crossed. Sorry,Charlie.

Cobb was a major league creep who may have conspired to throw some games, but there is no proof as there is with Rose, so unfortunately he stays.

[Soulstation1]

nobody will ever get 4000 + hits

pete thought he was bigger than the game

the game goes on with or w/o Peter Edward Rose

[Brad]

Quincy,

Excellent list. Of those on your list, I think the following bear consideration for inclusion:

C - Munson

P - Tiant, Guidry, Kaat

I just think it should be very hard to get in.

Edited January 5, 2006 by Brad

[BERIGAN]

Pete is a creep beyond description. Do that mean anything?

No, it don't mean shit. Charlie Hustle IS baseball as far as I'm concerned. He never threw any games. It's not in his nature. Bet on em’, sure. But that’s different. And as far as I know, being a nice guy isn't a prerequisite to being inducted. Shit, if Cobb can be in the hall, Rose sure as hell should be.

One of the few times Johnny has it right! I think I mentioned this here before, but what is worse, betting on your team to win(And I am sure, on other teams he wasn't playing) or What Cap Anson did??? I cannot see how Anson can belong there, and Rose doesn't. Anson helped damage the game of baseball, much more than Rose ever did.... a quick google search pulled up this interesting page on Cap Anson, and his racism. http://www.capanson.com/chapter4.html

[BERIGAN]

If you never read the Big Show by Keith Olbermann, and Dan Patrick, pick it up! Even the stuff that should be boring(So you want to get into broadcasting) isn't, and Keith has one of the best baseball minds, period. In a chapter on Pete Rose yes, or no for the the Hall, they got to talking about players that Obermann feels should be in the hall...lets start with Keith Hernandez...I'll just add after seeing him play for years in St. Louis, he was the best first baseman of his era.

[BERIGAN]

A good argument is made for those two D. Evans guys....

[BERIGAN]

Just for you Dan! I agree, don't know why he ain't in there yet....

[BERIGAN]

NL

C - Ted Simmons (a decent case for him to be in the Hall can be made.)...

An excellent list Quincy! And now we get to my favorite player as a kid, Simba!(One website said he was called that because of his golden locks! ,) I am sure I am biased for Simmons, but I have seen in print Olbermann, Gammons, and I think George Will as well saying he should be in the HOF. Seven times he hit over .300,(.332 one season) six times he hit 20 or more home runs, and in eight different seasons he drove in more than 90 runs. He's 84th all time with 2472 hits. 64th on the RBI list with 1389. (More than Bench, Carter, Fisk, Piazza, or Ivan Rodriguez have so far ) His .285 lifetime B.A. is the same as Yogi, and better than Bench, Carter, or Fisk. He's 58th on the doubles list, with 483. 55th on games played with 2456. I think he is still in the top ten in Homeruns 248, by a switch hitter(couldn't find a list of top switch hitters for some reason)

The guy played in one of the biggest stadiums(before they moved the fences in, Busch was about as bad a homerun stadium as there was), and was hit by a pitch that broke a bone in his hand in his best home run season, 26. He played on some very bad teams, year after in in the 70's. Simmons was the one guy you didn't want to face in the Cards lineup with runners on base, and he was frequently pitched around. And he was a good catcher, at one time. One year he caught 153 games, another 154(One season he played in 161 games!) I think like Carter, and Piazza, seeing them catch near the end of their careers, makes you forget how good they once were.

I'm not saying he's better than the other hall of fame catchers, just that he belongs there...hell, he didn't get enough votes to even be eligible now, and I just don't know how it happened. (I think there is some new version of the Veterans Committee)

I don't agree with Olbermann that Simmons was a better Switch Hitter than Eddie Murray...Murray had many more hits, homers, R.B.I.'s than Simmons, but only hit 2 points higher, and I do believe 1st base isn't quite as hard on you as catching.....