Feb 7th RVG Batch

[Big Al]

I've only listened to this in the car and have no point of reference previously but it's the music that I was focusing on particularly the title track but what I liked is how they threw a standard in there and played it in a more conventional hard bop way. So, you get a great mixture of styles and playing.

Well, FWIW, I first listened to it in the car and then listened to it on the computer here at work. Not exactly your high-end stereos (and I'm still not convinced I correctly hooked up my car speakers). Still, I A/B'd the RVG with the McMaster (and bear in mind, my McMaster copy is actually a CDR I made of the McMaster, with a lot of audio tweaking: raising the treble, raising the overall volume level) and to these ears, the McMaster reaches out and grabs you, while the RVG just kinda sits there.

Or maybe, just maybe, I out-RVG'd RVG!!!

[scottb]

Or maybe, just maybe, I out-RVG'd RVG!!!

That's what it sounds like to me!

Could you "tweak" The Freap for me?

[Big Al]

Or maybe, just maybe, I out-RVG'd RVG!!!

That's what it sounds like to me!

Could you "tweak" The Freap for me?

Hmmmmm..... Check your PM box!

[couw]

Well I just got off the phone with Reid and he kindly sent me the retouched version. Seems that EMI is trying to promote a healthier lifestyle and why not start at the top with the middle weight champion.

so this has been up for how many hours and no one deems it funny enough to at least add *some* smiley dude? (and no, the frantic red robosmiley doesn't count Ron)

fegh that, you all are a bunch of no good fun hating douche bags! hah! (sorry clem)

here you go Bint:

[J.A.W.]

Well I just got off the phone with Reid and he kindly sent me the retouched version. Seems that EMI is trying to promote a healthier lifestyle and why not start at the top with the middle weight champion.

so this has been up for how many hours and no one deems it funny enough to at least add *some* smiley dude? (and no, the frantic red robosmiley doesn't count Ron)

fegh that, you all are a bunch of no good fun hating douche bags! hah! (sorry clem)

here you go Bint:

Apparently I'm missing a lot of fun since I decided not to read threads about RVGs anymore...

[scottb]

After Al's observation about the Gigolo, I went back and A/B'd them in my car, on my home system, on my computer, even on my jam box. I hear what Al is talking about.

Overall I think the recording is improved. The piano and bass are much clearer and can be heard through the mix. The sax is right up front but when Lee plays he's not as forward in the mix as on the McMaster and when you expect him to jump in and blow you away he doesn't.

Lee is on the left channel and Wayne is on the right. If you alter the balance a little to the left suddenly Lee sounds a little more prominent. Maybe McMaster did this to bring Lee up front a little more and Rudy decided not to for whatever reason (I mean it is Lee's date!) I would prefer RVGs clarity with McMaster's balance.

[Ron S]

If you alter the balance a little to the left suddenly Lee sounds a little more prominent. Maybe McMaster did this to bring Lee up front a little more and Rudy decided not to for whatever reason (I mean it is Lee's date!) I would prefer RVGs clarity with McMaster's balance.

But doesn't this statement appear on the back of the McMaster?

The classic Blue Note albums which span the mid 1950's to late 1960's were recorded directly on to two track analog tape. No multitrack recording was used and consequently no mixing was required. Therefore, this CD was made by transferring the one step analog master to digital.

If this is true, wouldn't that mean that only Rudy altered the original studio mix, and not McMaster? In other words, ironically, wouldn't it mean that the McMaster more accurately presents the sound of Rudy's original recording than Rudy's own remastering?

[Big Al]

Good point, Ron.

I've also listened to HORACE-SCOPE which, when compared to other Silver RVGs from that era, sounds quite good. I don't have a McMaster with which to compare that one, but it has the same clarity and balance of BLOWING THE BLUES AWAY and FINGER POPPIN' (probably my all-time favorite RVG, right there).

[jazzbo]

The previous issue of Horacescope was I believe remastered by a Japanese engineer, not McMaster.

[jazzbo]

Ron, I think that statement simplifies things. For example, McMaster narrowed the stereo spread on those two track tapes. That's likely not his only manipulations. RVG also does his tricks.

I find these threads fascinating because it underlines to me that almost everyone has a different idea of what sounds good, and almost everyone's room and system makes a cd sound different. . . .!

[scottb]

But doesn't this statement appear on the back of the McMaster?

I don't know, I have been without my McMaster copy for some time and have only had my CDR of it for the car to listen to.

[robert h.]

If you alter the balance a little to the left suddenly Lee sounds a little more prominent. Maybe McMaster did this to bring Lee up front a little more and Rudy decided not to for whatever reason (I mean it is Lee's date!) I would prefer RVGs clarity with McMaster's balance.

But doesn't this statement appear on the back of the McMaster?

The classic Blue Note albums which span the mid 1950's to late 1960's were recorded directly on to two track analog tape. No multitrack recording was used and consequently no mixing was required. Therefore, this CD was made by transferring the one step analog master to digital.

If this is true, wouldn't that mean that only Rudy altered the original studio mix, and not McMaster? In other words, ironically, wouldn't it mean that the McMaster more accurately presents the sound of Rudy's original recording than Rudy's own remastering?

More likely the perception of Lee being more upfront on the McMaster is a result of equalization of the tape by McMaster - if you understand the statement about "direct to two track" - it means - no mixing possible (after all, how can you mix two tracks?). Therefore, the more likely scenario is that the RVG is less manipulated.

Realistically, every engineer eq's a tape when remastering to some degree. There really is no such thing as "accurately reflecting the original master tape" since there is some equalization in mastering probably 95% of the time. The issue is which engineer's choices are preferred by the listener.

[Ron S]

More likely the perception of Lee being more upfront on the McMaster is a result of equalization of the tape by McMaster - if you understand the statement about "direct to two track" - it means - no mixing possible (after all, how can you mix two tracks?). Therefore, the more likely scenario is that the RVG is less manipulated.

Realistically, every engineer eq's a tape when remastering to some degree. There really is no such thing as "accurately reflecting the original master tape" since there is some equalization in mastering probably 95% of the time. The issue is which engineer's choices are preferred by the listener.

Yet on the early McMaster Blue Notes it says, "Digital Transfer by Ron McMaster," and not "remastering" by him. Is it possible that these were in fact straight transfers with no manipulation? That certainly seems to be what Blue Note wanted us to believe, given this and the previous statement I quoted. Is there hard evidence to the contrary?

[J.A.W.]

More likely the perception of Lee being more upfront on the McMaster is a result of equalization of the tape by McMaster - if you understand the statement about "direct to two track" - it means - no mixing possible (after all, how can you mix two tracks?). Therefore, the more likely scenario is that the RVG is less manipulated.

Realistically, every engineer eq's a tape when remastering to some degree. There really is no such thing as "accurately reflecting the original master tape" since there is some equalization in mastering probably 95% of the time. The issue is which engineer's choices are preferred by the listener.

Yet on the early McMaster Blue Notes it says, "Digital Transfer by Ron McMaster," and not "remastering" by him. Is it possible that these were in fact straight transfers with no manipulation? That certainly seems to be what Blue Note wanted us to believe, given this and the previous statement I quoted. Is there hard evidence to the contrary?

As far as I know those early transfers were indeed flat/straight, with no manipulation.

[jazzbo]

I find that pretty hard to believe, especially in the light of some of the things that Kevin has written about conversations with him.

[jazzbo]

Here's what McMaster posted here:

"I am frankly shocked and amazed at the statements being made on "McMaster Masters". It is hard to take on all of the issues that seem to be causing some of the authors to dislike the mastering work I have done. Let me start by saying that the early digital transfers of master tapes dubbed to 1610 and later 1630 format was the beginning of putting the Blue Note catalog into the digital format. It was not a matter of putting my sonic signature on the old masters but rather to do only a few sonic adjustments and present the original sound of the old masters as they were intended. The process and the digital equipment have changed very much since those early days of the first digital transfers. Today however, I still work with the same approach, keeping to the original sound of the master as it was intended.Let's set a few things straight, I do not hard pan the stereo spread on the original masters. I reduce it about 40%. I do not use digital noise reduction as a rule.Only in extreme cases and never without the permission of Michael Cuscuna. All masters are loaded into the Sonic Solutions after they are EQ'd and blended.There is no digital EQ or limiting ever done to them.I record them in 24 bit resolution and SBM2 for the output dither. The Sonic Solutions is merely a digital workstation from which we can assemble and edit the music program while staying in 24 bit. In addition, Sonic Solutions is not at all like Dolby noise reduction, and it does not color the audio program with processing and shaping techniques. We use the best converters available to assure pure audio signal conversion from analog to digital.For the LP purists on the Mosaic and Blue Note releases we take the masters and go straight to lacquer, never entering the digital domain.I would like to say that when you compare masters it is only fair to use songs that have been done at the same time and period of technology. To compare some of my old digital transfers with the new RVG releases is like comparing apples and oranges.We can't please everyone, but I hope that you will believe me when I tell you we want to deliver the best possible Blue Note CD.As Blue Note customers and fans you deserve the best possible product. Not every tape is perfect, not every CD without its flaws. However, we never take the attitude "oh, it's good enough". I for one appreciate your comments and hope to continue to deliver the best quality music possible. Remember too that this is a team effort, and the producer must approve all of the mastering. Many times when there is a major flaw and we cannot find a correct version then Michael Cuscuna will put a producers note on the jacket and try to keep the customers informed of the problems on the master. This by no way a cop out statement, it is merely to reflect the whole of the workings of all of these wonderful recordings. The implications of some of the authors are that I just carelessly master theoriginal songs and then the label just puts out the product. Not caring at all about the customer or the sound of the music.That couldn't be farther from the truth. Blue Note is and always has been a very intelligent and customer based label, they care about the consumer and they care about the music.

"Regards,Ron McMaster"

Up to 40% reduction of the sound stage and "a few sonic adjustments" and he mentions EQ specifically. . . this could represent quite a bit of manipulation . . . .

"The original sound of the master as it was intended." I don' think he has an idea of that intention.

Edited February 11, 2006 by jazzbo

[John Tapscott]

Strangely enough I have never heard "The Gigolo" in any form, but after all the raves about it on this Board, how could anyone not want it? The RVG is now making its way towards me from cduniverse.

Thanks for the discussion, but I'm afraid it's somewhat dampening my anticipation of hearing this disc. When I listen to it for the first time (and subsequently) there will be something in the back of my mind telling me that I'm not really hearing it at its best, or in all its glory, so to speak.

[jazzbo]

Yeah, it's way too bad we all don't have thousand dollar turntables, two thousand dollar phono preamps, and all the original lps!

[Big Al]

Been listening to WORKOUT all morning and this sucker SMOKES!!! Philly Joe just crackles and everyone sounds like they're in the room with me!

John, I'll be interested in hearing your comments on GIGOLO. I hope I didn't put too much of a damper on your enthusiasm, because I'm telling you right now: this is Mogie at his finest!!! "You Go to My Head" is worth the price of admission alone!

[Big Al]

Well I just got off the phone with Reid and he kindly sent me the retouched version. Seems that EMI is trying to promote a healthier lifestyle and why not start at the top with the middle weight champion.

Don't know how I missed it, but Mobley's pumping iron in that picture!!!

[BruceH]

Yeah, it's way too bad we all don't have thousand dollar turntables, two thousand dollar phono preamps, and all the original lps!

Life just isn't fair.

[scottb]

What does the JRVG of Gigolo sound like (if their was one)? Is the US RVG the same master?

I thought Blue Note and RVG were going to start using the Japanese masters instead of redoing them.

[Morganized]

For anyone interested in the McMaster look here. One coming up.

I am not affiliated with the Seller in any way!!!!

GIGOLO-MCMASTER

[mgraham333]

I love Joyride! This is my first time to hear this album. I was familiar with River's Invitation from the Blue Note 60th Anniversary boxed set. The rest of the album, especially Mattie T. are fantastic.

Oliver Nelson's influence is easily heard, but Turrentine's voice stands out.

Another cool, car-themed cover too!

Is there more of Stanley Turrentine in this format?

[Guest]

whats the problem with the covers now? all the sames are spelled right....